Good stuff Monica. We're definitely on the same page here. I'm doing less and less consulting right now, only a couple of small time projects. I'm laying low, contemplating the next move, but I'll add one that I enjoy working with –> Companies I really believe in. Sometimes they may even be a little bit of the first two you've mentioned, but if they don't have to sell me on why what they do matters, chances are they're going to get me to come aboard, for much less than I'm worth.
And you're absolutely right. My time is my most valuable asset and I don't take it lightly anymore.
That's very true! I love your addition. Generally I've found that if companies start in one of the first two categories but they convince me that I should believe in them, they move to the “teachable but bootstrapped” category. Money isn't everything, but I'm very careful to not get too involved with a company that can't afford it, so I usually keep those relationships at the advice level.
very compelling post here Monica. I find the 3rd and 4th points you brought up very true and common these days. I see companies writing how they are seeking a social media expert with 8 years experience et al. I start to ask myself do these people even know that ventures like twitter and even facebook haven't been around for that long?? I find that many companies are finally starting to realize that to compete with others in their industry they must harness the power of social media…only problem is that they will rather have you come on board as their employee rather than a consultant. I typically beg to differ.
I can't agree with you more, Monica. I've been a solopreneur for several years. There's nothing more time and mind-sucking than someone who wants to try to figure out what you're all about in three or more meetings. I now sit down with a potential client once and after that, we communicate electronically until/if they make a decision and even then, on a limited basis.
There are also those who will call you and ask so many questions that before you know it, an hour has passed. I no longer accept those calls. I'll talk for a few minutes but after that, I politely tell him/her that the information for which they ask is how I make a living.
The bottom line is that if someone takes advantage of your time and knowledge before you get the account, there's a high probability that they will be a problem once they sign on.
There are plenty of “good ones” out there to balance the problem children.
I never understand the amount of job experience needed for those types of jobs. I mean, I've been since 1998 on livejournal – is that what they're looking for?
I definitely understand why companies want to hire someone full-time. It's a cool job – it's just not the one for me. I think what I'm selling is guidance, strategy, and setup; not actual Twitter updates. Which is why I never even consider those types of jobs.
Thanks for the comment! What is your Gen Y startup?
It's great to hear from someone who has been doing this longer than I have. I'm glad I'm not alone in getting frustrated with people who need too much upfront selling. I have to agree that I wouldn't want to take an hour long call with that many questions. Do you tell them after a few minutes that you'll be billing them for the rest of the call? Is that rude? I'm just curious how you handle those situations – whether you ask them to set up a separate meeting or you trust them to pay the bill when you send it to them.
I completely understand and share your view. Gen Y startup is just what i came up with to share my ideas and the lessons i've learned in starting my first business and what i am learning as I am building my current start-up. I also try to interview successful entrepreneurs so me and other readers can learn from them. I recently started featuring impressive start-ups by gen y people to get them some exposure from the blog. I also so internet marketing/consultation for local startups and businesses in the area.
Cool! I know a bunch of new entrepreneurs that aren't so “Web 2.0″ that have great young startups. Let me know if you want to hear from any of them! I'm sure they'd love to speak to you if you're looking for features!
oh really? that would be lovely! I am certainly keen on doing that. I am on twitter as genystartup or if e-mail is more appropriate, then info@genystartup.com. It doesn't matter if they are not so web 2.0, as long as their success or atleast their efforts towards success is inspirational to others, then it works for me!
Nope — not technically a GenYer (I'd like to think I think like one, though!).
So glad you realized what you like/don't like in potential clients before I figured it out (in years). You're now world's ahead in time and stress management.
It's hard to tell someone who's called you for information to tell them that you'll be charging them beyond a 15-minute/30-minute chat — there's no agreement in place at that point. In a nice way, however, tell them that you'd like to continue your conversation and provide them more information, and ask them if they'd like to schedule a consulting session or if they want you to create an activity plan for them. If he/she tries to ask on, politely tell them that such information is what people pay you for.
With consulting, fees should be collected up front, unless they want to buy a series of chats. Then, and with packages, I require half/half — half paid up front, the other at the end of the project.
Watch the clock…if you feel a conversation dragging on in person or via telephone, wrap up the conversation and say it's been a pleasure talking with him/her, followed by — would you like me to email you my fees? People should be (but aren't always) respectful that you have other responsibilities and little time to chat away the day.
I hope some of this helps. Feel free to ask anything more. I feel like I've been through — almost all!
Great post Monica – I am in the same boat. Learning to say no to consulting gigs is something that is hard to do, but ultimately will benefit your business. Educating clients and managing expectations is the #1 thing to building a successful business. Looks like you are well on that path!
I will add one other thing — meetings take time in travel and actual meeting time. While I used to travel near and far to meet a potential client, I felt like the farther I drove, the less likely I was to get the business. (Only fly if the potential client is footing the bill — and always meet in their big office complex or a public place = safety counts.)
While the business chances are not really true, I select a meeting place that's closer to me for exploratory meetings. I can't afford to take an hour or more out of my day to drive to see someone for whom I don't know how serious their business intentions. If they can't meet closer to you, suggest a Skype meeting. It saves both of you time — and stress.
So helpful! I usually ask for cash upfront unless I am producing a deliverable, which I won't deliver until I receive payment. Then I ask for half upfront, as you said.
I find most people contact me via email, so I've never been confronted with the long phone calls (yet). Hopefully I won't have to deal with that much, but if I ever do I will definitely use some of the lines you've provided here. Thanks again!
Glad to hear other people are in the same boat as me – it's reassuring to know that I'm not doing anything too unconventional with my business. Thanks for the comment!
Age discrimination works two ways. You might be surprised at how often I hear “you wouldn't understand this- it's a technology business.” (I'm at the advanced end of the Baby Boom, and not a technologist)
After 30 years of signing my own paycheck as a consultant, there is one thing I'd add. If you are successful, you don't even have the time for one unnecessary meeting. Draw up your qualifying questions, and use them every single time. They should be functional for a telephone conversation, email correspondence, or even just to send to a prospect for completion. Nothing onerous, and hopefully they provide value in their own right.
If they refuse to play- they probably aren't a client. If they don't understand the questions, if they don't return them after one reminder, if they insist on doing it their way- they probably aren't a client.
And no, I'm not infallible. I take on clients that are procrastinators, unschooled in business or ADD because their businesses interest me, and still am waiting for one of those to turn out well.
Great post, Monica! I was wondering if you've tried performance based contracting that would give you a piece of the action and a vested stake in the results if your social media recommendations pay off? The thought process and selection criteria you've described seems workable, and I wish you much success … sincerely, a Gen Xer (Steve)
Hi Monica. Good post, and it is timely for me as I continue to think about my goals and value in the consulting world.
One thing I want to comment on is the 'offer' to employ you for $50,000. You seem offended, and unwilling to accept that that might in fact be your value. As in, if that's what someone thinks you're worth for a year, then that is their price and doesn't put them at fault. Sure, it's negotiable, but it also doesn't mean that they need you on their team forever. As a consultant you can take on several jobs, and if one were to sign on one project worth $50,000 – one of three that add up to a six-figure year – then you're golden! Have you ever tried to turn a salary offer into a contract offer?
Just a thought, because afterall the #1 (or #2) rule as a consultant is to increase the value of your client's work. The challenge is also doing it for their offered price.
Hey T – No, I'm not really offended honestly. I think $50,000 is a respectable salary for recent college graduates. I don't consider myself a recent college graduate though.
I haven't tried to convert something like that to a project because no one really goes for it. If they want to hire someone full-time it's because they want someone who will work 50+ hours a week at their company. I wouldn't be able to commit to that x3, and that's just not what I'm selling right now, so it doesn't work for me.
I've actually read a lot about how consultants lose money when they try to take on either too much work or they try to sell themselves to every possible client. As a consultant, you aren't just selling, you're also buying what the client has to offer. It's a tough balance but certainly one I continue to learn.
I haven't, no. How would that work? Wouldn't you have to forgo a higher hourly rate to gain later? And how would that be monitored? I've found that it's one thing to teach a client how to do something and another for them to actually execute the work and get results, so it might be difficult to work out a deal like that.
I always forget that age discrimination goes both ways, so thanks for the added perspective. I am working on formalizing my qualifying questions into a web form, and getting my rates online. What do you think of listing general hourly rates? I think it would be a helpful qualifier, so I don't have to email people individually about rates.
Hey, thanks for getting right back. I do see what you mean, too, about the differences in a hiring offer and project offer – but I would think that an offer of any sort means they're interested in something. BUT hey, you're right. If they see you as a glorified intern that they can overwork for their “fair” price, then that's not what you're looking for. True enough. And I look forward to more posts I can relate/learn from. We work in very different worlds, but comparison and tactic is still key. Have a good one. (I wasn't sure if you got this comment. It's not showing up on my disqus and I was just in the middle of a repeat as I thought I had lost it in the process)
I love the hostile ” You are not telling me anything I don't already know” client or the client who denies that you have identified any material issues…. Why do I like these guys??? because when they contact me months later for help… my fees include “attitude adjustment fees” LoL
That's true. Just in my own experience, I've found that because it's a recession, people with full-time positions open feel they have a significant advantage over job seekers. So for now, they just really don't want to hire anyone that they can't control. I often get the impression from companies that I should be happy that they are offering me anything, when my own approach as a consultant is “let's find the right fit, and form a partnership.”
I think it's so weird (and unfortunate) how companies have shifted their mindset due to the recession.
I've gotten that a few times too. It is strange to me. Because I always research the company and figure out what they *are* doing, and then give them what they aren't and should be.
IMO, if you know you should be doing something and aren't doing it, it's not the consultant's fault they are reiterating or confirming that, yes indeed that would improve your business. As a consultant, I find that part of my job is teaching people how to do the things they should be doing faster, or telling them who they should hire, or helping them get fit what they should be doing into a workflow. It's a challenge, but one I love.
Thanks for the comment! I am curious whether you are joking about the “attitude adjustment fees” or if you really do write (and charge) for that
I certainly do charge difficult clients more. There is a difference in the client who is not convinced that they need help and the clients who are nasty and disrespectful when you attempt to help. If you politely express your concerns we are all good… But if you show your bad side and ask for help later I am going to have to make you pay, that is if the fee was not negotiated in advance. Every company has rewards for good customers so I have an anti-reward for bad customers….and yeah I know I just made up a word.
My outlook is a bit different… I have the luxury of declining clients whom I do not wish to work with. And I do not value money more than my happiness, so I have no problem walking away… I almost had to yesterday as a matter of fact. If I am put in a position to work in a hostile enviornment I expect to be compensated for the extra stress.
My outlook is a bit different… I have the luxury of declining clients whom I do not wish to work with. And I do not value money more than my happiness, so I have no problem walking away… I almost had to yesterday as a matter of fact. If I am put in a position to work in a hostile enviornment I expect to be compensated for the extra stress.
Monica O'Brien is the Director of Digital at Fizz and author of the book Social Pollination, which helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth!
Monica O'Brien is the Director of Digital at Fizz and author of the book Social Pollination, which helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth!
{ 33 comments… read them below or add one }
Good stuff Monica. We're definitely on the same page here. I'm doing less and less consulting right now, only a couple of small time projects. I'm laying low, contemplating the next move, but I'll add one that I enjoy working with –> Companies I really believe in. Sometimes they may even be a little bit of the first two you've mentioned, but if they don't have to sell me on why what they do matters, chances are they're going to get me to come aboard, for much less than I'm worth.
And you're absolutely right. My time is my most valuable asset and I don't take it lightly anymore.
R
That's very true! I love your addition. Generally I've found that if companies start in one of the first two categories but they convince me that I should believe in them, they move to the “teachable but bootstrapped” category. Money isn't everything, but I'm very careful to not get too involved with a company that can't afford it, so I usually keep those relationships at the advice level.
Thanks for sharing!
very compelling post here Monica. I find the 3rd and 4th points you brought up very true and common these days. I see companies writing how they are seeking a social media expert with 8 years experience et al. I start to ask myself do these people even know that ventures like twitter and even facebook haven't been around for that long?? I find that many companies are finally starting to realize that to compete with others in their industry they must harness the power of social media…only problem is that they will rather have you come on board as their employee rather than a consultant. I typically beg to differ.
I can't agree with you more, Monica. I've been a solopreneur for several years. There's nothing more time and mind-sucking than someone who wants to try to figure out what you're all about in three or more meetings. I now sit down with a potential client once and after that, we communicate electronically until/if they make a decision and even then, on a limited basis.
There are also those who will call you and ask so many questions that before you know it, an hour has passed. I no longer accept those calls. I'll talk for a few minutes but after that, I politely tell him/her that the information for which they ask is how I make a living.
The bottom line is that if someone takes advantage of your time and knowledge before you get the account, there's a high probability that they will be a problem once they sign on.
There are plenty of “good ones” out there to balance the problem children.
I never understand the amount of job experience needed for those types of jobs. I mean, I've been since 1998 on livejournal – is that what they're looking for?
I definitely understand why companies want to hire someone full-time. It's a cool job – it's just not the one for me. I think what I'm selling is guidance, strategy, and setup; not actual Twitter updates. Which is why I never even consider those types of jobs.
Thanks for the comment! What is your Gen Y startup?
Gail,
It's great to hear from someone who has been doing this longer than I have. I'm glad I'm not alone in getting frustrated with people who need too much upfront selling. I have to agree that I wouldn't want to take an hour long call with that many questions. Do you tell them after a few minutes that you'll be billing them for the rest of the call? Is that rude? I'm just curious how you handle those situations – whether you ask them to set up a separate meeting or you trust them to pay the bill when you send it to them.
Thanks for the comment!
I completely understand and share your view. Gen Y startup is just what i came up with to share my ideas and the lessons i've learned in starting my first business and what i am learning as I am building my current start-up. I also try to interview successful entrepreneurs so me and other readers can learn from them. I recently started featuring impressive start-ups by gen y people to get them some exposure from the blog. I also so internet marketing/consultation for local startups and businesses in the area.
Cool! I know a bunch of new entrepreneurs that aren't so “Web 2.0″ that have great young startups. Let me know if you want to hear from any of them! I'm sure they'd love to speak to you if you're looking for features!
oh really? that would be lovely! I am certainly keen on doing that. I am on twitter as genystartup or if e-mail is more appropriate, then info@genystartup.com. It doesn't matter if they are not so web 2.0, as long as their success or atleast their efforts towards success is inspirational to others, then it works for me!
Nope — not technically a GenYer (I'd like to think I think like one, though!).
So glad you realized what you like/don't like in potential clients before I figured it out (in years). You're now world's ahead in time and stress management.
It's hard to tell someone who's called you for information to tell them that you'll be charging them beyond a 15-minute/30-minute chat — there's no agreement in place at that point. In a nice way, however, tell them that you'd like to continue your conversation and provide them more information, and ask them if they'd like to schedule a consulting session or if they want you to create an activity plan for them. If he/she tries to ask on, politely tell them that such information is what people pay you for.
With consulting, fees should be collected up front, unless they want to buy a series of chats. Then, and with packages, I require half/half — half paid up front, the other at the end of the project.
Watch the clock…if you feel a conversation dragging on in person or via telephone, wrap up the conversation and say it's been a pleasure talking with him/her, followed by — would you like me to email you my fees? People should be (but aren't always) respectful that you have other responsibilities and little time to chat away the day.
I hope some of this helps. Feel free to ask anything more. I feel like I've been through — almost all!
Great post Monica – I am in the same boat. Learning to say no to consulting gigs is something that is hard to do, but ultimately will benefit your business. Educating clients and managing expectations is the #1 thing to building a successful business. Looks like you are well on that path!
I will add one other thing — meetings take time in travel and actual meeting time. While I used to travel near and far to meet a potential client, I felt like the farther I drove, the less likely I was to get the business. (Only fly if the potential client is footing the bill — and always meet in their big office complex or a public place = safety counts.)
While the business chances are not really true, I select a meeting place that's closer to me for exploratory meetings. I can't afford to take an hour or more out of my day to drive to see someone for whom I don't know how serious their business intentions. If they can't meet closer to you, suggest a Skype meeting. It saves both of you time — and stress.
Fantastic post. Thank you so much for writing this – I found myself agreeing with everything.
So helpful! I usually ask for cash upfront unless I am producing a deliverable, which I won't deliver until I receive payment. Then I ask for half upfront, as you said.
I find most people contact me via email, so I've never been confronted with the long phone calls (yet). Hopefully I won't have to deal with that much, but if I ever do I will definitely use some of the lines you've provided here. Thanks again!
Glad to hear other people are in the same boat as me – it's reassuring to know that I'm not doing anything too unconventional with my business. Thanks for the comment!
Thank you for the comment! Glad to hear the post resonated with you.
Thanks Monica,
Age discrimination works two ways. You might be surprised at how often I hear “you wouldn't understand this- it's a technology business.” (I'm at the advanced end of the Baby Boom, and not a technologist)
After 30 years of signing my own paycheck as a consultant, there is one thing I'd add. If you are successful, you don't even have the time for one unnecessary meeting. Draw up your qualifying questions, and use them every single time. They should be functional for a telephone conversation, email correspondence, or even just to send to a prospect for completion. Nothing onerous, and hopefully they provide value in their own right.
If they refuse to play- they probably aren't a client. If they don't understand the questions, if they don't return them after one reminder, if they insist on doing it their way- they probably aren't a client.
And no, I'm not infallible. I take on clients that are procrastinators, unschooled in business or ADD because their businesses interest me, and still am waiting for one of those to turn out well.
Great post, Monica! I was wondering if you've tried performance based contracting that would give you a piece of the action and a vested stake in the results if your social media recommendations pay off? The thought process and selection criteria you've described seems workable, and I wish you much success … sincerely, a Gen Xer (Steve)
Hi Monica. Good post, and it is timely for me as I continue to think about my goals and value in the consulting world.
One thing I want to comment on is the 'offer' to employ you for $50,000. You seem offended, and unwilling to accept that that might in fact be your value. As in, if that's what someone thinks you're worth for a year, then that is their price and doesn't put them at fault. Sure, it's negotiable, but it also doesn't mean that they need you on their team forever. As a consultant you can take on several jobs, and if one were to sign on one project worth $50,000 – one of three that add up to a six-figure year – then you're golden! Have you ever tried to turn a salary offer into a contract offer?
Just a thought, because afterall the #1 (or #2) rule as a consultant is to increase the value of your client's work. The challenge is also doing it for their offered price.
–Torbjorn
Hey T – No, I'm not really offended honestly. I think $50,000 is a respectable salary for recent college graduates. I don't consider myself a recent college graduate though.
I haven't tried to convert something like that to a project because no one really goes for it. If they want to hire someone full-time it's because they want someone who will work 50+ hours a week at their company. I wouldn't be able to commit to that x3, and that's just not what I'm selling right now, so it doesn't work for me.
I've actually read a lot about how consultants lose money when they try to take on either too much work or they try to sell themselves to every possible client. As a consultant, you aren't just selling, you're also buying what the client has to offer. It's a tough balance but certainly one I continue to learn.
Thanks for the comment!
I haven't, no. How would that work? Wouldn't you have to forgo a higher hourly rate to gain later? And how would that be monitored? I've found that it's one thing to teach a client how to do something and another for them to actually execute the work and get results, so it might be difficult to work out a deal like that.
I always forget that age discrimination goes both ways, so thanks for the added perspective. I am working on formalizing my qualifying questions into a web form, and getting my rates online. What do you think of listing general hourly rates? I think it would be a helpful qualifier, so I don't have to email people individually about rates.
Hey, thanks for getting right back. I do see what you mean, too, about the
differences in a hiring offer and project offer – but I would think that an
offer of any sort means they're interested in something. BUT hey, you're
right. If they see you as a glorified intern that they can overwork for
their “fair” price, then that's not what you're looking for. True enough.
And I look forward to more posts I can relate/learn from. We work in very
different worlds, but comparison and tactic is still key.
Have a good one.
(I wasn't sure if you got this comment. It's not showing up on my disqus and
I was just in the middle of a repeat as I thought I had lost it in the
process)
If you put hourly rates on your material, you'll still have those who think the job should take “just a few hours.”
Consider putting down a total price range, such as “Our average client engagement runs between $4,000 and $12,000.”
That should better qualify them.
Nice blog, BTW. You write well.
John Dini
Great advice. Thanks so much! I will definitely be taking it.
I love the hostile ” You are not telling me anything I don't already know” client or the client who denies that you have identified any material issues…. Why do I like these guys??? because when they contact me months later for help… my fees include “attitude adjustment fees” LoL
That's true. Just in my own experience, I've found that because it's a recession, people with full-time positions open feel they have a significant advantage over job seekers. So for now, they just really don't want to hire anyone that they can't control. I often get the impression from companies that I should be happy that they are offering me anything, when my own approach as a consultant is “let's find the right fit, and form a partnership.”
I think it's so weird (and unfortunate) how companies have shifted their mindset due to the recession.
I've gotten that a few times too. It is strange to me. Because I always research the company and figure out what they *are* doing, and then give them what they aren't and should be.
IMO, if you know you should be doing something and aren't doing it, it's not the consultant's fault they are reiterating or confirming that, yes indeed that would improve your business. As a consultant, I find that part of my job is teaching people how to do the things they should be doing faster, or telling them who they should hire, or helping them get fit what they should be doing into a workflow. It's a challenge, but one I love.
Thanks for the comment! I am curious whether you are joking about the “attitude adjustment fees” or if you really do write (and charge) for that
I certainly do charge difficult clients more. There is a difference
in the client who is not convinced that they need help and the clients
who are nasty and disrespectful when you attempt to help. If you
politely express your concerns we are all good… But if you show your
bad side and ask for help later I am going to have to make you pay,
that is if the fee was not negotiated in advance. Every company has
rewards for good customers so I have an anti-reward for bad
customers….and yeah I know I just made up a word.
So interesting. I'll have to think about that one for a little while.
My outlook is a bit different… I have the luxury of declining clients whom I do not wish to work with. And I do not value money more than my happiness, so I have no problem walking away… I almost had to yesterday as a matter of fact. If I am put in a position to work in a hostile enviornment I expect to be compensated for the extra stress.
So interesting. I'll have to think about that one for a little while.
My outlook is a bit different… I have the luxury of declining clients whom I do not wish to work with. And I do not value money more than my happiness, so I have no problem walking away… I almost had to yesterday as a matter of fact. If I am put in a position to work in a hostile enviornment I expect to be compensated for the extra stress.
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