i don’t think using Gen Y as the dividing line is quite right. a dividing line (e.g., with openness as the test) does seem to exist, but it does not seem to correspond exactly to whether you are Gen Y or not.
You may be right. So my question would be what is the right divide? Gen Y makes sense to me because of the characteristics of the generation. The generation seems to be better at debating over ideas, without taking those debates personally.
I also notice Gen X better at conversation than Boomers. Maybe it is an age thing rather than a generational divide? Thanks for the comment.
it still could be generational, but as a hyphenated Canadian i don’t quite trust where the dividing line should be. back in HK we speak of the “post-80″ generation (which i am not but perceived to be one); this does not correspond to what we call Gen Y here.
I feel like it’s less about age and more about the personality of the generation. But that’s just me. Interpreting generations should always be loose – after all, you are generalizing about a good 100 million people
I think it’s irrational to think (especially expect) everyone from a specific generation to fit nicely into the same attribute-ladened box. Yes, broad generational labels are helpful to capture the overarching essence of a generation’s contributions to human history. But using such broad brush strokes in finite ways obscures the simple point that generations are generational – and that a string of generations is an evolution. It’s a fluid and organic process, not snapshots piece-mealed together.
Hence, I agree with Monica that the Gen Y debate is more about personality. I’ll even take it further – it’s about perspective. We Gen Y’ers have the great fortune to be apart of the greatest technological acceleration in human history. Such rapid growth has united our generation in profound ways never before imagined. This gives us the magnified perspective of togetherness in near-infinite dimensions (global, ethnicity, race, politics, sexual orientation, real-time communication/media, etc.).
It’s simply evolution – well, given the technology catalysts, perhaps a revolution!
Nice post. I’m certainly not going to get myself into trouble by generalizing about generations.
I gave a talk last night to a bunch of people about social media best practices. Most were in their 30s and 40s. I’m with you that active engagement and even disagreement trump mere “agreement.” Blogs like this have heightened my knowledge of how to effectively use social media. Silly is the PR firm or person who only seeks affirmation.
I mean, how many times can you read, “You’re right, Phil” without it getting old.
Monica, you’re cute and you’re smart and you didn’t seem to be full of GenY propaganda. And now this. Please. We used to critique Gen Y bloggers a lot on http://www.RecruitingBloggers.com and they didn’t like it. You know why? Because they are airheads and back slappers just like everybody else.
Just looking at the copy on your blog shows me that you’re not particularly diff either.
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@Recruiting Animal – I wonder if blogging and the real world bring out different parts in people? I.e., would you say the things you say on a blog in real life?
JT O’Donnell, Comment
I always try to remember the phrase, “Anger is fear turned outward.” It reminds me that the older generations may be projecting frustration, but that it’s rooted in anxiety
Linda, Comment
After reading the criticisms my opinion is they don’t have the qualities you are writing about. They will not become leaders, are not passionate, not interesting, not into changing the world, not looking for better lives, not going to fulfill their potential, etc.
JT ought to have known better. She’s not GenY and she’s pretty smart. But she knows how to work a crowd
1) I read Rebecca Thorman’s blog almost religiously. I have probably read every post there at least once, including the Naysayer’s one you linked to. I would argue that she is actually an example of someone who IS looking for conversation. Why? Because her and I disagree about a lot of things and we always have a discussion on her blog or mine, and neither of us ever budge but perhaps we make each other think a little harder.
2) I feel like your comment is a good example of not having a conversation. I’m not trying to be defensive or anything. But look – you insulted me 3 or 4 times in the first few lines. It doesn’t bother me much, really. It’s just hard to have a conversation about an idea when your main points are personal attacks on me or others.
Also, I have always drunk the Gen Y Kool-Aid I’m not sure what would make anyone think otherwise – my blog used to be called Twenty Set, I worked at Brazen Careerist, and I know just about everyone from the Gen Y community of 2 years ago when it was all the rage. Not just know of them, but have worked with them, hung out with them several times, blurbed their books, or gotten coaching from them. I apologize for bursting your bubble there
Dear, look what you just did. You created a straw dog, that you could easily dismiss instead of addressing the real issue.
“You insulted me. That’s not argument.”
“You called me a Princess. [And I have no sense of humour.] That invalidates anything else you said.”
Theoretically, Gen Y should be more open to critical discussion than previous generations for a few reasons.
1. Our society has been on a progressive path of free expression and open critical debate for a few hundred years.
2. There have been decades of growth of post-secondary education that expose people to this culture.
3. When a popular singer like Kesha can perform a song like Blah, Blah, Blah (“Don’t bore me with your chit chat, Just show me where your dick’s at”) and get away with
it, you have to assume that her audience doesn’t put up many barriers to free speech.
On the other hand, Father Guido Sarducci had a point when he explained the logic of the 5 minute university. When you leave school you’re only going to remember 5
minutes of what you learned so that’s all it should take to qualify for a degree.
Also, egos are eternal and our culture has not yet succeeded in creating people who aren’t afraid to have their errors pointed out in public.
We’re ahead of the traditional societies in moving toward this sublime state. Engineers working in global customer service have told me that when dealing with people western countries they can be very direct and say, “Hey, you’re doing this wrong” whereas in other countries, that’s a no-no.
But, in my experience of online discussions, the GenY crowd is still full of thin-skinned people who like talking trash, just like everybody else.
However, here’s a confession: I haven’t been really active in Gen Y discussions for the last two years so maybe online Gen Y culture itself is undergoing a change.
And maybe not. I listened in on the Gen Y discussion at The Recruiting UnConference in London a few months ago and the 25 year old Gen Y expert claimed that entrepreneur was a dirty word in the last generation whereas bold Gen Y was eager to embrace it now.
I know he read it in some blog article and didn’t know anything of Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or the slew of entrepreneurs from Silicon Valley. And as far as I know, he didn’t receive any criticism at all. In fact, now he’s looking to get invited to speak at the TED conference.
But maybe he was talking to older folks and they’re just a bunch of suckers.
I won’t say “our society is on a progressive path to openness”. Human nature is inherently sinful. There are parts where we are on a progressive path to openness, but other parts where things are becoming more taboo and less open—and in some cases it has become or will become illegal to be open. It’s not as open as you think if you really think about it.
Hey Monica, I do agree with you in that Gen Y is changing a lot of rules. Whether it is in the workplace on how we do things or online on how we interact, they’re both merging in the sense of creating this transparent everyday life. Just being nice is the safe likeable route where you’ll most likely agree with everything/everyone. Being you and actually voicing your opinion whether it goes against what everyone else is saying is a trustable trait. People will turn to you and engage in your dialogue because they know they’ll hear how it truly is. This is a conversation.
Thanks Eric. It seems to me like each generation gets less uptight. We roll with the punches I feel. And I have little doubt that the generation after us will be even more intellectual.
Hi Monica: interesting post (don’t even know how I got here – I was supposed to be writing copy for my new site about “personal branding”). Anyway, most Gen Y bloggers and marketers who cite the value of conversation, like most people in real-world “conversations,” just like to hear themselves speak. It has something to do with the intersection of ego, need for approval, and “look at what I did!” We are saturated with information – more blogs that likely interest us than we could possibly ever read – and so much of what is written (including on my own blog) is all about the info dump. We may toss a question at the end for “engagement” purposes, but usually we are blogging about our thoughts, how-to, or “isn’t that interesting?”. Then there are the comments – something that I think most bloggers want, but not every one gets (myself included) on a regular basis. Do these comments count as conversation? Most of us leaving them here are sharing our thoughts, not really doing a whole back and forth with you.
So let me do that one thing that stimulates any “real-world” conversation: ask you a question. How can we have more effective conversations online? Do we even want these? And what is the value in doing so (how do you measure the ROI on a conversation – I’m half kidding here)?
I think it can count as conversation – that said, some people don’t leave very thoughtful comments. So if you are just rambling then it doesn’t provide much for someone to reply to.
To answer your end questions: I don’t think we need more effective conversations. I wish we could shut up about how important conversation is in terms of one person (the social media celebrity) conversing with all 10,000 fans. This type of engagement is just plain impossible – it’s the new mommy porn pipe dream that nobody can actually achieve.
Conversation about ideas is a different story. Word of mouth is real and interesting and if you have good ideas, products, and services, then you can have real conversation. The part we need to get over is where the conversation starts. We don’t need a leader of the conversation, we need participants who care.
Ugh, the ugly ROI word. At Fizz, we say that conversation should be interesting, relevant, and authentic. Our ROI is when we can say: After a year of doing word of mouth for the American Dairy Association, chocolate milk consumption is up by 485% in our test areas. ROI is the results you get over the specified time frame.
By the way, great questions. I’m definitely writing a blog post about this.
Many of my thoughts have already been said above. I agree w/ most of your points a/b acceptance and culture mingling.
One thing I’m anxious to see about Gen-Y is how we progress as we get into our 30s. Some things seem to be constant from generation to generation. For instance, many ultra-liberals from the 70s are now very conservative. In general, I’ve seen a few studies that show people are just less tolerant for a variety of reasons as they get older. It’s like your tolerance for BS get lower. I like to relate it to dating. I think how I got pickier and picker about women as I got older.
So, in short, I’m very anxious to see if some of the things you mention are a Gen-Y thing or a 20s thing.
You bring up good points. I wonder that too. I do, however, think that each generation that passes is more open about their lives. That includes everything – risky pictures on the internet, tweeting their opinions, cussing online. I think as a generation there is very little that shocks us anymore.
I believe that the next generation will feel this even more, but for now, we are the most open generation. Thanks for the comment!
I have to agree with you about Gen Y in terms of a demographic of younger people.
In relation to the older folk – Gen Xers (like me), Baby Boomers, etc – it is normal for peer pressure to create an expectation that as you mature and become more senior in your profession you are expected to be seen as professional and wise. Consequently, any invitation of debate a topic and appear vulnerable can be met with a counter-reaction to the individual in the workplace – especially in PR and marketing – and the position of wisdom may be eroded. So, any challenge may be made privately – not openly – so that the individual facilitates their own growth without the vulnerability risk.
I think that the Gen Y / Others distinction is a coincidence of 2010. In 20 years, will the Gen Y generation replace Gen X and build the same virtual communication walls? Will they appoint themselves the perceived “experts”, or remain open and connected as they do today?
Personally I always welcome debate and real conversation. But that’s just me. Time will tell for the rest!
All of this makes sense. I also feel that as people grow in their expertise, they get egos. They think they know better than others – younger in the same career, mid-career switchers, and more. This is exasperated when someone gets a big blog and becomes well-known in their industry based on it.
People can’t stand to be wrong – their pride gets in the way. I really hope my generation doesn’t get to that point.
The open tools we now have on the Web that foster communication, discussion and debate were not available pre-Gen Y, and they have facilitated this ability to have real conversations. Consequently, Gen Y has been able to fully integrate these tools with their daily lives, and I hope that this change in approach is carried through into later years, and, as you say, people don’t suffer the traditional flaws of humanity and succumb to ego, pride, etc. The world would be a better place with more open dialogue.
Part of me wonders if the reason Gen Y might value conversations more is that they haven’t yet achieved the experience necessary to create the large feaux communities that are rampart with some of the more well-known bloggers.
I think you very well could be right when you mention some of the key distinguishing factors of our generation, but like ambrose I’m a bit hesitant to attribute it to age. I don’t know if there’s a definitive answer, but I do worry that as our generation acquires the experience/reputation that warrants a large community if they’ll shift from more authentic conversations to the drone-approach. Ryan Stephens´s last blog ..Maybe Give a Back Tickle Rather Than a Full Body Massage
There are some Gen Y people that have assimilated with older generations professionally – Ben Casnocha and Ramit Sethi come to mind. I agree that experience might come into play or that other generations might not feel like they are “learning” anymore – but I also think the traits of Gen Y have made us more accepting of people from different backgrounds, thus allowing us to have these authentic conversations.
You and I both hope that the authentic conversations don’t end when we hit 30!
I find sororities who turn being nice into a crime to be a rather appropriate microcosm of the extremes that this philosophy could bring about in other avenues should it fall into the wrong hands. (Though I am not suggesting you are the wrong hands, personally.)
Should people be downgraded because they do not wish to debate (or even discuss) certain subjects that they find to be, in your words, “taboo”? Even if we accept the premise that some of those taboos are fading, we need to be careful to not label those who still find those touchy subjects off limits. They were, and in some cases still are taboo for very good reasons. People still fight wars over those subjects, after all. While I agree that more people are becoming open about them, we dare not devolve into being flippant about them either.
Why must we make the assumption that those who choose not to open up their blogs to the potential of vehement debate are somehow dodging the important issues? Perhaps they blog because they have come to all the conclusions they wish to come to at that point in their life on any given subject, and are not looking for debate. Does that make their voice less valuable? Does a blogger have to declare open season on their beliefs just to be seen as “legitimate” to the Gen-Y blogosphere?
You are of course an example of someone who seems to thrive on what you consider “passionate, interesting conversation”. And you define that in a certain way. That is acceptable. But I detected a degree of universalism in your post. As though your degree, (or is it Gen Y’s degree?) of instant frankness is the only real way to build relationships today, and I don’t believe that it is.
The reason I don’t think that it is goes back to the sorority house example; I don’t believe that being “nice” is simply a political concept, but even if it were, why would that matter?
It is obviously not your own way, but I feel that a great number of very wise, intelligent, thoughtful bloggers, writers, and other influential sorts these days, (even within Gen Y), thrive just as much in an environment does in fact appreciate being “nice”, and doesn’t merely dismiss the concept as a political one. Indeed for some, it may simply be a sincere way of life. Their seeds may take longer to grow, but the soil is just as fertile.
As a writer myself, I don’t require “yes-men”. I don’t take issue with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with what I say about any given issue. I could argue the sun would come up tomorrow, and somebody would be there to explain why in fact it would not. That is a fact of life when you speak out on anything. But to suggest, (as you seem to) that being nice, (aka political, polite, diplomatic, tactful, add your synonym here) is somehow a sign of weakness or immaturity I think is to not be fair to a whole school of human relations that has proven itself quite effective over time.
I’m somewhere in the middle, I suppose. Somewhere, quite literally between X and Y. (Maybe that’s how I came up with the title of my blog.) But I naturally gravitate towards the polite people at first, which lets me in the door. Then I take a look at the house, and decide if more frankness is worth it, justified, or even safe. When I find someone to be solid, I let them have more of myself, but until then, I find it a bit uncouth to unload my guts totally just because I can. Ty Unglebower´s last blog ..Come Follow Follow Follow Follow Follow Follow Follow Me?
First of all thanks for the comment. Second, I have no idea where to start responding. And I like lists. So I’ll go with that:
1) We didn’t ever say being nice was a crime. It was actually that if all you could say about a girl was that she was nice, then she probably didn’t fit into the group. Because either no one had anything in common with her or she didn’t show off her personality because she was uncomfortable. Sorry that I didn’t make that clearer in my post.
2) I’m not trying to downgrade people. I’m simply saying that they don’t want to have a real conversation. In which case, I think why bother to leave the comments open on your post, but to each his own. Also, I’m pointing out specifically that the people who say “conversation is important” are the ones who don’t actually want to have one. Seth Godin does not want to have a conversation on his blog – he makes that clear though. And that’s perfectly fine – I respect the guy immensely for setting boundaries to manage his time.
3) You are right on one thing – I am not a huge fan of being nice. I just don’t value it highly. I value being smart, being opinionated, being confident, being interesting, being optimistic… but nice is just not at the top of my list. I don’t think this is a bad thing or a good thing, nor do I look down on others who do value being nice. That also doesn’t mean that I *do* value the *opposite* of nice, which we can call mean. Mean is not cool either. I like just plain honestly, without the politics of being nice or mean. That’s just me though.
4) “But to suggest, (as you seem to) that being nice, (aka political, polite, diplomatic, tactful, add your synonym here) is somehow a sign of weakness or immaturity…” No clue where this comes from. I don’t think I said this at all. Just wanted to point that out, so you didn’t confuse other readers of this conversation.
5) It’s okay to be in the middle. No one is asking you to spill your guts. The post was actually about engaging in debate without taking things personally… it seems that you had a different interpretation. Hope this clears everything up.
The problem with (1) is the assumption that “either no one had anything in common with her or she didn’t show off her personality because she was uncomfortable”, in particular the second half. There are many reasons why someone wouldn’t want to show off her personality. Being uncomfortable is one, but not the only possibility. She could be just shy, or it could be cultural (e.g., say she’s an immigrant or cultural norms are still pervasive in her family), or it could be yet other reasons.
I don’t know what to feel about taboo subjects. I think many things are actually BECOMING taboo these days due to political correctness. And because many PC people are in positions of authority things that we wouldn’t consider taboo are becoming very taboo and it seems that more are becoming taboo. This is really sad.
In this case, it was because joining a sorority is completely 100% based on personality fit, so it doesn’t really matter what reason the person doesn’t fit in. The point was not to feel guilty about saying “she just doesn’t fit in.” People tend to say, “well, she’s really nice though…” Great! But being nice is not a good reason to love someone, be friends with someone, or defend someone’s actions.
Feel free to interpret it the way you want. I’m just trying to clarify my intentions… as a writer, it is my fault if you haven’t interpreted correctly because I wasn’t clear enough.
I love that no one was voted in simply by being “nice”. Being nice is not an exceptional quality. Everyone should be expected to be at the very least nice (yea, yea, this is idealistic). I want to know what you are other than nice. After all, grass can be nice. But I don’t particularly want to have a conversation/ hang-out/ go on a date with grass.
Where to begin…I think this post went sour on me when it turned a solid point about mediocre people being okay with “nicety” to a post bashing people older than Gen-Y being: less culturally tolerant; less passionate regarding world/environmental affairs; and less comfortable talking about money, politics and religion. I heaved a sigh and had to think hard as to whether I’d spend this much time on a reply.
Thank God you’re the shining example of Gen-Y. I manage an all Gen-Y group of employees, and I’d worry about my judgment picking talent if they ever spewed the ignorance you did in this post. But since you insist in your replies to comments on representing your generation, here goes….
To older people, conversation becomes overrated. The Greatest Generation doesn’t want to sit back and talk about the millions of body parts that are now part of the European soil. They don’t want to talk about a race of people being targeted for annihilation or the holocaust the Japanese levied on the Chinese and Southeast Asians. They don’t want to reflect much on what it felt like to know they had to melt 200,000 Japanese civilians alive to win a war. They lived it, it haunts them. They overcame incredible odds to save millions of people of different races and cultures from oppression and mass murder at a psychological and emotional cost unimaginable to the cute little Gen-Y’ers who so proudly bounce around the social Internet, bragging about (non)-accomplishments.
Boomers conquered the last vestiges of slavery. They went to the moon. They conquered communism, they put flowers at the ends of the guns pointed at them. So much for lacking passion. They INVENTED the Peace Corps, Greenpeace, PETA, Save the Whales, the EPA, Amnesty Intenational, Doctors without Borders and countless other world-changing agencies dedicated to taking on “taboo” issues like socioeconomic inequality, political and religious oppression. Conversations weren’t going to cut it in their wold. Fighting injustice, being literal foot soldiers in true mass movements to change laws are their legacy. Maybe they hear Gen-Y talk and think to themselves, “wow, they really take this all for granted. I’m not even going to bother trying to talk with someone so obsessed with hearing themselves speak.”
Before you think I say any of this out of defensiveness, I’m not even going to put Gen-X on the level of the generations before them, because really, I can’t. We inherited a wealthier, more peaceful world, and we’ve been told that all we need to do is not screw it up. Gen-X is not really a separate generation from Gen-Y – we’re actually more like your big brothers and sisters. And one thing this “big brother” can offer as a tip: nice people are FAR more valuable than you grasp at this stage of your career. You can’t run a company without them. Nice people are quite often the people who can’t say “no” very easily, they are willing to work longer hours to get a job done right, and they are the cultural glue of many organizations.
Thanks for your comment. I think the point that people get tired of conversing as they get older is a great one. That said, there is nothing in my post about not appreciating older generations and what they have done; I’m simply stating the facts that this generation is all of the things I’ve mentioned.
I think the idea that “nice people are FAR more valuable than you grasp at this stage of your career” is fairly off point from what I wrote in my post. Also, the examples you listed could be a good or bad thing for an organization. People who can’t say “no” very easily will not stand up to a boss who is making a terrible decision for the company and will allow the company to wallow in old technology and old ways of thinking. Compliance does not spur innovation, and plenty of people can be nice and also say “no” when it is necessary.
Overall, I find your comment fairly rosy towards other generations. I especially feel sorry for you because you think your generation is meant only to inherit a better world and not screw it up. That’s a very passive view when there are plenty of things about our world that could be improved and innovated upon. Also, as I said to Recruiting Animal, when you insult people as you have insulted me here (calling my ignorant and saying you wouldn’t hire me based on a blog post) rather than critiquing ideas, you usually don’t want conversation. Monica O’Brien´s last blog ..Gen Y Cares About Conversation; Everyone Else, Not So Much
My final thoughts before I give this blog way more of my attention than it deserves.
1. “I’m simply stating the facts that this generation is all of the things I’ve mentioned.” Are you familiar with the term “circular logic”? Ironically, you’re the one shutting the conversation down by saying I got personal, when I actually am critiquing your ideas – they are ignorant, plain and simple. I didn’t say you’re stupid, I said they’re ignorant, as in, uninformed, unsubstantiated, and untenable. The reason I wouldn’t hire you is because you didn’t provide a speck of data to base your massive assumptions on. If you don’t have data to back up the assumptions that Gen-Y’ers are more cultured, more passionate, and more willing to talk about money, religion and politics than their elders, then you haven’t established anything as fact. I listed multiple examples of why I think your ideas are wrong per bullet point to that effect, which you’ve completely cast aside, conveniently enough.
2. I don’t mean to come off that rosy about Gen-X: my point is that we have inherited a more peaceful, prosperous world. Now we need to take care of what we’ve got and improve things. We’re higher up in Mazlow’s heirarchy than ever before, and that didn’t just happen. Millions of people gave their lives for it.
3. My point about nice people is from my own MBA education, from People Styles at Work, kind of an HR bible. Amiables – nice people – are as vital to an organization as any other personality type. They help people overcome conflicts. They usually are allergic to intra-office politics and drama, they get the job done, theyr’e good foot soldiers.
Ahh, I don’t think I’ve cast your arguments aside, I think you just don’t agree with my responses. That’s hard for you to see because you don’t know how to communicate ideas without insulting people. I said the same thing to Recruiting Animal, who, ironically, belongs to the same generation as you. Coincidence? I think you both prove my point. Thanks for doing so.
Hope you don’t mind me weighing in on the conversation …
I think that Christian made some excellent points, and, without getting hung up on issues that were taken personally, has extended the discussion and debate into different and perfectly valid areas – after all, that’s what conversation is about, so why constrain it to “on or off topic”? It’s also interesting that Christian’s team are all Gen Y.
Older generations have had the open discussions you talk about – about religion, politics, corporate social responsibility, finances, etc – and still do, but they didn’t have the online tools to be able to broadcast them to the world, or necessarily choose to use them today. Corporate Social Responsibility actually gained momentum in the 1980s but is making slow headway. This was as a result of some of those open discussions – action was taken and initiatives started. This doesn’t make the older generations or their conversations any less valuable than their equivalent online counterparts today. There is also a huge amount of rubbish talked about online; we also need to be selective. I’m sure there are also a lot of Gen Y people who don’t engage on the Internet (I know a few personally, and one or two to be key leaders of tomorrow).
You also make some valid points, though it’s interesting that sorority is more geared to selecting individuals or leaders from the flock, or is looking for somebody with something more interesting to say, or somebody that is more opinionated. Doesn’t mean they are always right, but it’s interesting to chart where people end up in business based on their early life choices.
There are, sadly, huge volumes of “wow, cool” comments posted by everybody – more young than old – and although they don’t have a tangible value in themselves, if I have a product or something related to my brand which has a huge number of people thinking it’s great, then that enhances my brand (or at least can be quoted internally by the PR folks as adding value to it). 10,000 likes on a post on Facebook are like having 10,000 “wow, cool” comments – they’re just a neater way to show them.
Which brings me back to your original point – PR & Marketing folks like numbers, and if they get lots of “likes” against something then this is a good thing for them and the campaign. Social media allows us to extend the reach of our brands everywhere and any feedback is welcomed – it’s just that the fluff often outweighs the real feedback.
Gen Y is more mobile – I know more Gen Y people that have lived in multiple countries. This is a great benefit and one that will help us as a race going forwards. As long as Gen Y can apply this same principle of openness and acceptance to not alienating older generations
Agreed that past generations have had *some* conversation about these topics offline, but they are not even close to the level of openness that Gen Y has. This is partially due to technology, but these conversations happen offline all the time too. Gen Y is just more open, period, and the level of openness is way up there.
“Wow, cool” comments are okay as long as you are also okay with comments from people disagreeing with your ideas. Many people aren’t. I am, but the minute you attack my character just because you disagree…
> you don’t know how to communicate ideas without insulting people. I said the same thing to Recruiting Animal, who, ironically, belongs to the same generation as you. Coincidence? I think you both prove my point. Thanks for doing so.
This is hilarious. (a) You’ve got a tin hear and (b) if you’re right, the world is going to a be very different place. But of course it won’t; at least not in the way you’re predicting.
The free style of expression that began, let’s say in the 60s, has been progressing continually and contemporary culture is more given to open expression of a wide range of ideas and feelings that it ever has been.
Great conversation happening here, obviously spawned from a great post
I will just say that I vocally tell people, I hope I am never described as “nice.” I personally think it’s a crap word with little-to-meaning. It’s like saying, “I’m fine,” you clearly know that person is NOT fine. Grace Boyle´s last blog ..Friday Linky Love
I think that’s exactly the point. Not that we were looking for “mean” girls or “opinionated” girls… but that we weren’t going to let someone in *just because* they were nice. It’s a throwaway word with little meaning. And it’s an excuse to not find something more useful to say about someone.
You are nice, Grace, but you’re also smart, kind, and a good writer. To me, those things are far more valuable than the word “nice.”
I don’t think it’s fair or wise to make such broad generalizations about different generations or any group for that matter. I think we’re all guilty of doing that at times. In fact, I had to laugh when I saw your title because my first thought was, “Really? The generation that texts instead of talks (and often while someone else is actually talking to them) cares about conversation?”
You have some great points. Yes, many so-called “big-time” bloggers talk about conversation a lot, but like to talk mostly to people they know and people who agree with them. (An exception that quickly rises to the top of my mind is Danny Brown. And he’s not Gen Y.)
You also impress me with the length you go to and care you take in responding to comments on your blog. Thats impressive. But it’s not because you’re Gen Y, it’s because you care, you’re passionate about what you’re doing and you enjoy interacting with people. There are many people in every generation who act the same way, whether it’s blogging or work or any social interaction.
BTW, love the idea your sorority had! Great job on the post. I may not agree with you, but it was an interesting read. And your comment trail is just as interesting.
Really? I think it’s okay to make broad generalizations. How else do you notice trends on a macro level?
I think what bothers people about generational speak is that it makes them realize they aren’t special, and that their very personalities, wants, and desires have been influenced by the world events of the time period they grew up in. There are *some* exceptions, but pointing to those doesn’t make the rule any less real, and actually doesn’t make for a very interesting or strong argument.
Your point about responding to comments is good. It’s possible that this has more to do with how “big” you get versus your generation; however, I hope that I will always respond to comments no matter how “big” this blog gets
As a young, near the last Boomer who has more identity with X then Y, I think I have an answer about “mental flexibility” and “Openness”.
As we get older, and become more invested in who we are (read in here: acquire things such as home, spouse, children, better car, furniture, 401K, status in job etc) we find that we have “more to lose”. Some is real, some is transitionally real, some not so real, but some such as family and future security is very real and worth defending.
Unfortunately, that defense bleeds over into much of everything else that we believe “defines” us. With investment, we become less likely to sort out the battles that are worth fighting, and the ones that are a walk away. It’s not an age thing, as much as it’s an invested thing. Ask your parents.
Gen Y is a class apart. We have a different way of doing things. We believe in working smart instead of working hard. As mentioned by Vineet Nayar in his book ‘Employees first, Customers second’, managing Gen Y employees requires a new set of capabilities. Gen Y believes in collaboration and learning. They don’t expect perfect answers. Organizations need to find a way to put these Gen Y attributes to good use.
Yep, agreed with the point about perspective. Generations have personalities because of the global events that have shaped their views. I really love this video from Alexandra Levit talking about Gen Y – it explains the “why” in the points above so much better than I can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXHbrC8Yt5M
In the spirit of conversation, I offer this as a more in-depth video on Gen-Y, Boomers, and Gen-X. As for the video link you post, I find it interesting that when you pull up the search result for it, it was only getting 1-star ratings before someone turned off the feedback loop. I think she did a better job than one star, but it’s ironic that the feedback loop was turned off on that one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVHnug8H1MM Christian´s last blog ..cavemandrawings: @HeatherMargolis Likewise! Must do that more often
Monica O'Brien is the Director of Digital at Fizz and author of the book Social Pollination, which helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth!
Monica O'Brien is the Director of Digital at Fizz and author of the book Social Pollination, which helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth!
{ 48 comments… read them below or add one }
i don’t think using Gen Y as the dividing line is quite right. a dividing line (e.g., with openness as the test) does seem to exist, but it does not seem to correspond exactly to whether you are Gen Y or not.
Ambrose,
You may be right. So my question would be what is the right divide? Gen Y makes sense to me because of the characteristics of the generation. The generation seems to be better at debating over ideas, without taking those debates personally.
I also notice Gen X better at conversation than Boomers. Maybe it is an age thing rather than a generational divide? Thanks for the comment.
it still could be generational, but as a hyphenated Canadian i don’t quite trust where the dividing line should be. back in HK we speak of the “post-80″ generation (which i am not but perceived to be one); this does not correspond to what we call Gen Y here.
I feel like it’s less about age and more about the personality of the generation. But that’s just me. Interpreting generations should always be loose – after all, you are generalizing about a good 100 million people
I think it’s irrational to think (especially expect) everyone from a specific generation to fit nicely into the same attribute-ladened box. Yes, broad generational labels are helpful to capture the overarching essence of a generation’s contributions to human history. But using such broad brush strokes in finite ways obscures the simple point that generations are generational – and that a string of generations is an evolution. It’s a fluid and organic process, not snapshots piece-mealed together.
Hence, I agree with Monica that the Gen Y debate is more about personality. I’ll even take it further – it’s about perspective. We Gen Y’ers have the great fortune to be apart of the greatest technological acceleration in human history. Such rapid growth has united our generation in profound ways never before imagined. This gives us the magnified perspective of togetherness in near-infinite dimensions (global, ethnicity, race, politics, sexual orientation, real-time communication/media, etc.).
It’s simply evolution – well, given the technology catalysts, perhaps a revolution!
Monica
Nice post. I’m certainly not going to get myself into trouble by generalizing about generations.
I gave a talk last night to a bunch of people about social media best practices. Most were in their 30s and 40s. I’m with you that active engagement and even disagreement trump mere “agreement.” Blogs like this have heightened my knowledge of how to effectively use social media. Silly is the PR firm or person who only seeks affirmation.
I mean, how many times can you read, “You’re right, Phil” without it getting old.
OK. Bad example. I never get sick of it.
Phil,
Hah! Your comment made me laugh.
Monica, you’re cute and you’re smart and you didn’t seem to be full of GenY propaganda. And now this. Please. We used to critique Gen Y bloggers a lot on http://www.RecruitingBloggers.com and they didn’t like it. You know why? Because they are airheads and back slappers just like everybody else.
Just looking at the copy on your blog shows me that you’re not particularly diff either.
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“helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth”
Nothin’ new here folks. Keep moving.
PS: Here’s some proof: http://is.gd/acIEv
Look at the reaction to criticism:
Modite:
@Recruiting Animal – I wonder if blogging and the real world bring out different parts in people? I.e., would you say the things you say on a blog in real life?
JT O’Donnell, Comment
I always try to remember the phrase, “Anger is fear turned outward.” It reminds me that the older generations may be projecting frustration, but that it’s rooted in anxiety
Linda, Comment
After reading the criticisms my opinion is they don’t have the qualities you are writing about. They will not become leaders, are not passionate, not interesting, not into changing the world, not looking for better lives, not going to fulfill their potential, etc.
JT ought to have known better. She’s not GenY and she’s pretty smart. But she knows how to work a crowd
Interesting. So here are my few thoughts on this:
1) I read Rebecca Thorman’s blog almost religiously. I have probably read every post there at least once, including the Naysayer’s one you linked to. I would argue that she is actually an example of someone who IS looking for conversation. Why? Because her and I disagree about a lot of things and we always have a discussion on her blog or mine, and neither of us ever budge but perhaps we make each other think a little harder.
2) I feel like your comment is a good example of not having a conversation. I’m not trying to be defensive or anything. But look – you insulted me 3 or 4 times in the first few lines. It doesn’t bother me much, really. It’s just hard to have a conversation about an idea when your main points are personal attacks on me or others.
Also, I have always drunk the Gen Y Kool-Aid
I’m not sure what would make anyone think otherwise – my blog used to be called Twenty Set, I worked at Brazen Careerist, and I know just about everyone from the Gen Y community of 2 years ago when it was all the rage. Not just know of them, but have worked with them, hung out with them several times, blurbed their books, or gotten coaching from them. I apologize for bursting your bubble there 
Dear, look what you just did. You created a straw dog, that you could easily dismiss instead of addressing the real issue.
“You insulted me. That’s not argument.”
“You called me a Princess. [And I have no sense of humour.] That invalidates anything else you said.”
Theoretically, Gen Y should be more open to critical discussion than previous generations for a few reasons.
1. Our society has been on a progressive path of free expression and open critical debate for a few hundred years.
2. There have been decades of growth of post-secondary education that expose people to this culture.
3. When a popular singer like Kesha can perform a song like Blah, Blah, Blah (“Don’t bore me with your chit chat, Just show me where your dick’s at”) and get away with
it, you have to assume that her audience doesn’t put up many barriers to free speech.
On the other hand, Father Guido Sarducci had a point when he explained the logic of the 5 minute university. When you leave school you’re only going to remember 5
minutes of what you learned so that’s all it should take to qualify for a degree.
Also, egos are eternal and our culture has not yet succeeded in creating people who aren’t afraid to have their errors pointed out in public.
We’re ahead of the traditional societies in moving toward this sublime state. Engineers working in global customer service have told me that when dealing with people western countries they can be very direct and say, “Hey, you’re doing this wrong” whereas in other countries, that’s a no-no.
But, in my experience of online discussions, the GenY crowd is still full of thin-skinned people who like talking trash, just like everybody else.
However, here’s a confession: I haven’t been really active in Gen Y discussions for the last two years so maybe online Gen Y culture itself is undergoing a change.
And maybe not. I listened in on the Gen Y discussion at The Recruiting UnConference in London a few months ago and the 25 year old Gen Y expert claimed that entrepreneur was a dirty word in the last generation whereas bold Gen Y was eager to embrace it now.
I know he read it in some blog article and didn’t know anything of Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or the slew of entrepreneurs from Silicon Valley. And as far as I know, he didn’t receive any criticism at all. In fact, now he’s looking to get invited to speak at the TED conference.
But maybe he was talking to older folks and they’re just a bunch of suckers.
I won’t say “our society is on a progressive path to openness”. Human nature is inherently sinful. There are parts where we are on a progressive path to openness, but other parts where things are becoming more taboo and less open—and in some cases it has become or will become illegal to be open. It’s not as open as you think if you really think about it.
anger is not necessarily fear turned outward, or at least what is perceived as anger is not. deep disappointment is also indistinguishable from anger.
Hey Monica, I do agree with you in that Gen Y is changing a lot of rules. Whether it is in the workplace on how we do things or online on how we interact, they’re both merging in the sense of creating this transparent everyday life. Just being nice is the safe likeable route where you’ll most likely agree with everything/everyone. Being you and actually voicing your opinion whether it goes against what everyone else is saying is a trustable trait. People will turn to you and engage in your dialogue because they know they’ll hear how it truly is. This is a conversation.
“Nice” post. Thanks.
@EricUngs
Thanks Eric. It seems to me like each generation gets less uptight. We roll with the punches I feel. And I have little doubt that the generation after us will be even more intellectual.
Hi Monica: interesting post (don’t even know how I got here – I was supposed to be writing copy for my new site about “personal branding”). Anyway, most Gen Y bloggers and marketers who cite the value of conversation, like most people in real-world “conversations,” just like to hear themselves speak. It has something to do with the intersection of ego, need for approval, and “look at what I did!” We are saturated with information – more blogs that likely interest us than we could possibly ever read – and so much of what is written (including on my own blog) is all about the info dump. We may toss a question at the end for “engagement” purposes, but usually we are blogging about our thoughts, how-to, or “isn’t that interesting?”. Then there are the comments – something that I think most bloggers want, but not every one gets (myself included) on a regular basis. Do these comments count as conversation? Most of us leaving them here are sharing our thoughts, not really doing a whole back and forth with you.
So let me do that one thing that stimulates any “real-world” conversation: ask you a question. How can we have more effective conversations online? Do we even want these? And what is the value in doing so (how do you measure the ROI on a conversation – I’m half kidding here)?
I think it can count as conversation – that said, some people don’t leave very thoughtful comments. So if you are just rambling then it doesn’t provide much for someone to reply to.
To answer your end questions: I don’t think we need more effective conversations. I wish we could shut up about how important conversation is in terms of one person (the social media celebrity) conversing with all 10,000 fans. This type of engagement is just plain impossible – it’s the new mommy porn pipe dream that nobody can actually achieve.
Conversation about ideas is a different story. Word of mouth is real and interesting and if you have good ideas, products, and services, then you can have real conversation. The part we need to get over is where the conversation starts. We don’t need a leader of the conversation, we need participants who care.
Ugh, the ugly ROI word. At Fizz, we say that conversation should be interesting, relevant, and authentic. Our ROI is when we can say: After a year of doing word of mouth for the American Dairy Association, chocolate milk consumption is up by 485% in our test areas. ROI is the results you get over the specified time frame.
By the way, great questions. I’m definitely writing a blog post about this.
Many of my thoughts have already been said above. I agree w/ most of your points a/b acceptance and culture mingling.
One thing I’m anxious to see about Gen-Y is how we progress as we get into our 30s. Some things seem to be constant from generation to generation. For instance, many ultra-liberals from the 70s are now very conservative. In general, I’ve seen a few studies that show people are just less tolerant for a variety of reasons as they get older. It’s like your tolerance for BS get lower. I like to relate it to dating. I think how I got pickier and picker about women as I got older.
So, in short, I’m very anxious to see if some of the things you mention are a Gen-Y thing or a 20s thing.
Christien,
You bring up good points. I wonder that too. I do, however, think that each generation that passes is more open about their lives. That includes everything – risky pictures on the internet, tweeting their opinions, cussing online. I think as a generation there is very little that shocks us anymore.
I believe that the next generation will feel this even more, but for now, we are the most open generation. Thanks for the comment!
I have to agree with you about Gen Y in terms of a demographic of younger people.
In relation to the older folk – Gen Xers (like me), Baby Boomers, etc – it is normal for peer pressure to create an expectation that as you mature and become more senior in your profession you are expected to be seen as professional and wise. Consequently, any invitation of debate a topic and appear vulnerable can be met with a counter-reaction to the individual in the workplace – especially in PR and marketing – and the position of wisdom may be eroded. So, any challenge may be made privately – not openly – so that the individual facilitates their own growth without the vulnerability risk.
I think that the Gen Y / Others distinction is a coincidence of 2010. In 20 years, will the Gen Y generation replace Gen X and build the same virtual communication walls? Will they appoint themselves the perceived “experts”, or remain open and connected as they do today?
Personally I always welcome debate and real conversation. But that’s just me. Time will tell for the rest!
Edward,
All of this makes sense. I also feel that as people grow in their expertise, they get egos. They think they know better than others – younger in the same career, mid-career switchers, and more. This is exasperated when someone gets a big blog and becomes well-known in their industry based on it.
People can’t stand to be wrong – their pride gets in the way. I really hope my generation doesn’t get to that point.
Monica – Me too.
The open tools we now have on the Web that foster communication, discussion and debate were not available pre-Gen Y, and they have facilitated this ability to have real conversations. Consequently, Gen Y has been able to fully integrate these tools with their daily lives, and I hope that this change in approach is carried through into later years, and, as you say, people don’t suffer the traditional flaws of humanity and succumb to ego, pride, etc. The world would be a better place with more open dialogue.
Part of me wonders if the reason Gen Y might value conversations more is that they haven’t yet achieved the experience necessary to create the large feaux communities that are rampart with some of the more well-known bloggers.
I think you very well could be right when you mention some of the key distinguishing factors of our generation, but like ambrose I’m a bit hesitant to attribute it to age. I don’t know if there’s a definitive answer, but I do worry that as our generation acquires the experience/reputation that warrants a large community if they’ll shift from more authentic conversations to the drone-approach.
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There are some Gen Y people that have assimilated with older generations professionally – Ben Casnocha and Ramit Sethi come to mind. I agree that experience might come into play or that other generations might not feel like they are “learning” anymore – but I also think the traits of Gen Y have made us more accepting of people from different backgrounds, thus allowing us to have these authentic conversations.
You and I both hope that the authentic conversations don’t end when we hit 30!
Interesting viewpoint.
I find sororities who turn being nice into a crime to be a rather appropriate microcosm of the extremes that this philosophy could bring about in other avenues should it fall into the wrong hands. (Though I am not suggesting you are the wrong hands, personally.)
Should people be downgraded because they do not wish to debate (or even discuss) certain subjects that they find to be, in your words, “taboo”? Even if we accept the premise that some of those taboos are fading, we need to be careful to not label those who still find those touchy subjects off limits. They were, and in some cases still are taboo for very good reasons. People still fight wars over those subjects, after all. While I agree that more people are becoming open about them, we dare not devolve into being flippant about them either.
Why must we make the assumption that those who choose not to open up their blogs to the potential of vehement debate are somehow dodging the important issues? Perhaps they blog because they have come to all the conclusions they wish to come to at that point in their life on any given subject, and are not looking for debate. Does that make their voice less valuable? Does a blogger have to declare open season on their beliefs just to be seen as “legitimate” to the Gen-Y blogosphere?
You are of course an example of someone who seems to thrive on what you consider “passionate, interesting conversation”. And you define that in a certain way. That is acceptable. But I detected a degree of universalism in your post. As though your degree, (or is it Gen Y’s degree?) of instant frankness is the only real way to build relationships today, and I don’t believe that it is.
The reason I don’t think that it is goes back to the sorority house example; I don’t believe that being “nice” is simply a political concept, but even if it were, why would that matter?
It is obviously not your own way, but I feel that a great number of very wise, intelligent, thoughtful bloggers, writers, and other influential sorts these days, (even within Gen Y), thrive just as much in an environment does in fact appreciate being “nice”, and doesn’t merely dismiss the concept as a political one. Indeed for some, it may simply be a sincere way of life. Their seeds may take longer to grow, but the soil is just as fertile.
As a writer myself, I don’t require “yes-men”. I don’t take issue with the fact that not everyone is going to agree with what I say about any given issue. I could argue the sun would come up tomorrow, and somebody would be there to explain why in fact it would not. That is a fact of life when you speak out on anything. But to suggest, (as you seem to) that being nice, (aka political, polite, diplomatic, tactful, add your synonym here) is somehow a sign of weakness or immaturity I think is to not be fair to a whole school of human relations that has proven itself quite effective over time.
I’m somewhere in the middle, I suppose. Somewhere, quite literally between X and Y. (Maybe that’s how I came up with the title of my blog.) But I naturally gravitate towards the polite people at first, which lets me in the door. Then I take a look at the house, and decide if more frankness is worth it, justified, or even safe. When I find someone to be solid, I let them have more of myself, but until then, I find it a bit uncouth to unload my guts totally just because I can.
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Ty,
First of all thanks for the comment. Second, I have no idea where to start responding. And I like lists. So I’ll go with that:
1) We didn’t ever say being nice was a crime. It was actually that if all you could say about a girl was that she was nice, then she probably didn’t fit into the group. Because either no one had anything in common with her or she didn’t show off her personality because she was uncomfortable. Sorry that I didn’t make that clearer in my post.
2) I’m not trying to downgrade people. I’m simply saying that they don’t want to have a real conversation. In which case, I think why bother to leave the comments open on your post, but to each his own. Also, I’m pointing out specifically that the people who say “conversation is important” are the ones who don’t actually want to have one. Seth Godin does not want to have a conversation on his blog – he makes that clear though. And that’s perfectly fine – I respect the guy immensely for setting boundaries to manage his time.
3) You are right on one thing – I am not a huge fan of being nice. I just don’t value it highly. I value being smart, being opinionated, being confident, being interesting, being optimistic… but nice is just not at the top of my list. I don’t think this is a bad thing or a good thing, nor do I look down on others who do value being nice. That also doesn’t mean that I *do* value the *opposite* of nice, which we can call mean. Mean is not cool either. I like just plain honestly, without the politics of being nice or mean. That’s just me though.
4) “But to suggest, (as you seem to) that being nice, (aka political, polite, diplomatic, tactful, add your synonym here) is somehow a sign of weakness or immaturity…” No clue where this comes from. I don’t think I said this at all. Just wanted to point that out, so you didn’t confuse other readers of this conversation.
5) It’s okay to be in the middle. No one is asking you to spill your guts. The post was actually about engaging in debate without taking things personally… it seems that you had a different interpretation. Hope this clears everything up.
The problem with (1) is the assumption that “either no one had anything in common with her or she didn’t show off her personality because she was uncomfortable”, in particular the second half. There are many reasons why someone wouldn’t want to show off her personality. Being uncomfortable is one, but not the only possibility. She could be just shy, or it could be cultural (e.g., say she’s an immigrant or cultural norms are still pervasive in her family), or it could be yet other reasons.
I don’t know what to feel about taboo subjects. I think many things are actually BECOMING taboo these days due to political correctness. And because many PC people are in positions of authority things that we wouldn’t consider taboo are becoming very taboo and it seems that more are becoming taboo. This is really sad.
In this case, it was because joining a sorority is completely 100% based on personality fit, so it doesn’t really matter what reason the person doesn’t fit in. The point was not to feel guilty about saying “she just doesn’t fit in.” People tend to say, “well, she’s really nice though…” Great! But being nice is not a good reason to love someone, be friends with someone, or defend someone’s actions.
I see. Well, I am sorry that the true gist of your blog post didn’t strike me properly.
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Feel free to interpret it the way you want. I’m just trying to clarify my intentions… as a writer, it is my fault if you haven’t interpreted correctly because I wasn’t clear enough.
I love that no one was voted in simply by being “nice”. Being nice is not an exceptional quality. Everyone should be expected to be at the very least nice (yea, yea, this is idealistic). I want to know what you are other than nice. After all, grass can be nice. But I don’t particularly want to have a conversation/ hang-out/ go on a date with grass.
Exactly! Seems like at least one person got the story
Where to begin…I think this post went sour on me when it turned a solid point about mediocre people being okay with “nicety” to a post bashing people older than Gen-Y being: less culturally tolerant; less passionate regarding world/environmental affairs; and less comfortable talking about money, politics and religion. I heaved a sigh and had to think hard as to whether I’d spend this much time on a reply.
Thank God you’re the shining example of Gen-Y. I manage an all Gen-Y group of employees, and I’d worry about my judgment picking talent if they ever spewed the ignorance you did in this post. But since you insist in your replies to comments on representing your generation, here goes….
To older people, conversation becomes overrated. The Greatest Generation doesn’t want to sit back and talk about the millions of body parts that are now part of the European soil. They don’t want to talk about a race of people being targeted for annihilation or the holocaust the Japanese levied on the Chinese and Southeast Asians. They don’t want to reflect much on what it felt like to know they had to melt 200,000 Japanese civilians alive to win a war. They lived it, it haunts them. They overcame incredible odds to save millions of people of different races and cultures from oppression and mass murder at a psychological and emotional cost unimaginable to the cute little Gen-Y’ers who so proudly bounce around the social Internet, bragging about (non)-accomplishments.
Boomers conquered the last vestiges of slavery. They went to the moon. They conquered communism, they put flowers at the ends of the guns pointed at them. So much for lacking passion. They INVENTED the Peace Corps, Greenpeace, PETA, Save the Whales, the EPA, Amnesty Intenational, Doctors without Borders and countless other world-changing agencies dedicated to taking on “taboo” issues like socioeconomic inequality, political and religious oppression. Conversations weren’t going to cut it in their wold. Fighting injustice, being literal foot soldiers in true mass movements to change laws are their legacy. Maybe they hear Gen-Y talk and think to themselves, “wow, they really take this all for granted. I’m not even going to bother trying to talk with someone so obsessed with hearing themselves speak.”
Before you think I say any of this out of defensiveness, I’m not even going to put Gen-X on the level of the generations before them, because really, I can’t. We inherited a wealthier, more peaceful world, and we’ve been told that all we need to do is not screw it up. Gen-X is not really a separate generation from Gen-Y – we’re actually more like your big brothers and sisters. And one thing this “big brother” can offer as a tip: nice people are FAR more valuable than you grasp at this stage of your career. You can’t run a company without them. Nice people are quite often the people who can’t say “no” very easily, they are willing to work longer hours to get a job done right, and they are the cultural glue of many organizations.
Thanks for your comment. I think the point that people get tired of conversing as they get older is a great one. That said, there is nothing in my post about not appreciating older generations and what they have done; I’m simply stating the facts that this generation is all of the things I’ve mentioned.
I think the idea that “nice people are FAR more valuable than you grasp at this stage of your career” is fairly off point from what I wrote in my post. Also, the examples you listed could be a good or bad thing for an organization. People who can’t say “no” very easily will not stand up to a boss who is making a terrible decision for the company and will allow the company to wallow in old technology and old ways of thinking. Compliance does not spur innovation, and plenty of people can be nice and also say “no” when it is necessary.
Overall, I find your comment fairly rosy towards other generations. I especially feel sorry for you because you think your generation is meant only to inherit a better world and not screw it up. That’s a very passive view when there are plenty of things about our world that could be improved and innovated upon. Also, as I said to Recruiting Animal, when you insult people as you have insulted me here (calling my ignorant and saying you wouldn’t hire me based on a blog post) rather than critiquing ideas, you usually don’t want conversation.
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My final thoughts before I give this blog way more of my attention than it deserves.
1. “I’m simply stating the facts that this generation is all of the things I’ve mentioned.” Are you familiar with the term “circular logic”? Ironically, you’re the one shutting the conversation down by saying I got personal, when I actually am critiquing your ideas – they are ignorant, plain and simple. I didn’t say you’re stupid, I said they’re ignorant, as in, uninformed, unsubstantiated, and untenable. The reason I wouldn’t hire you is because you didn’t provide a speck of data to base your massive assumptions on. If you don’t have data to back up the assumptions that Gen-Y’ers are more cultured, more passionate, and more willing to talk about money, religion and politics than their elders, then you haven’t established anything as fact. I listed multiple examples of why I think your ideas are wrong per bullet point to that effect, which you’ve completely cast aside, conveniently enough.
2. I don’t mean to come off that rosy about Gen-X: my point is that we have inherited a more peaceful, prosperous world. Now we need to take care of what we’ve got and improve things. We’re higher up in Mazlow’s heirarchy than ever before, and that didn’t just happen. Millions of people gave their lives for it.
3. My point about nice people is from my own MBA education, from People Styles at Work, kind of an HR bible. Amiables – nice people – are as vital to an organization as any other personality type. They help people overcome conflicts. They usually are allergic to intra-office politics and drama, they get the job done, theyr’e good foot soldiers.
And no need to feel sorry for me.
I had the leisure time to spice up your blog. A parting thought: had I wanted to not engage in conversation, I wouldn’t have commented on your blog. As Randy Pausch put it, don’t worry about when you’re yelled at. Learn from it. Worry when no one’s bothering to yell at you anymore.
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Ahh, I don’t think I’ve cast your arguments aside, I think you just don’t agree with my responses. That’s hard for you to see because you don’t know how to communicate ideas without insulting people. I said the same thing to Recruiting Animal, who, ironically, belongs to the same generation as you. Coincidence? I think you both prove my point. Thanks for doing so.
Hope you don’t mind me weighing in on the conversation …
I think that Christian made some excellent points, and, without getting hung up on issues that were taken personally, has extended the discussion and debate into different and perfectly valid areas – after all, that’s what conversation is about, so why constrain it to “on or off topic”? It’s also interesting that Christian’s team are all Gen Y.
Older generations have had the open discussions you talk about – about religion, politics, corporate social responsibility, finances, etc – and still do, but they didn’t have the online tools to be able to broadcast them to the world, or necessarily choose to use them today. Corporate Social Responsibility actually gained momentum in the 1980s but is making slow headway. This was as a result of some of those open discussions – action was taken and initiatives started. This doesn’t make the older generations or their conversations any less valuable than their equivalent online counterparts today. There is also a huge amount of rubbish talked about online; we also need to be selective. I’m sure there are also a lot of Gen Y people who don’t engage on the Internet (I know a few personally, and one or two to be key leaders of tomorrow).
You also make some valid points, though it’s interesting that sorority is more geared to selecting individuals or leaders from the flock, or is looking for somebody with something more interesting to say, or somebody that is more opinionated. Doesn’t mean they are always right, but it’s interesting to chart where people end up in business based on their early life choices.
There are, sadly, huge volumes of “wow, cool” comments posted by everybody – more young than old – and although they don’t have a tangible value in themselves, if I have a product or something related to my brand which has a huge number of people thinking it’s great, then that enhances my brand (or at least can be quoted internally by the PR folks as adding value to it). 10,000 likes on a post on Facebook are like having 10,000 “wow, cool” comments – they’re just a neater way to show them.
Which brings me back to your original point – PR & Marketing folks like numbers, and if they get lots of “likes” against something then this is a good thing for them and the campaign. Social media allows us to extend the reach of our brands everywhere and any feedback is welcomed – it’s just that the fluff often outweighs the real feedback.
Gen Y is more mobile – I know more Gen Y people that have lived in multiple countries. This is a great benefit and one that will help us as a race going forwards. As long as Gen Y can apply this same principle of openness and acceptance to not alienating older generations
Agreed that past generations have had *some* conversation about these topics offline, but they are not even close to the level of openness that Gen Y has. This is partially due to technology, but these conversations happen offline all the time too. Gen Y is just more open, period, and the level of openness is way up there.
“Wow, cool” comments are okay as long as you are also okay with comments from people disagreeing with your ideas. Many people aren’t. I am, but the minute you attack my character just because you disagree…
> you don’t know how to communicate ideas without insulting people. I said the same thing to Recruiting Animal, who, ironically, belongs to the same generation as you. Coincidence? I think you both prove my point. Thanks for doing so.
This is hilarious. (a) You’ve got a tin hear and (b) if you’re right, the world is going to a be very different place. But of course it won’t; at least not in the way you’re predicting.
The free style of expression that began, let’s say in the 60s, has been progressing continually and contemporary culture is more given to open expression of a wide range of ideas and feelings that it ever has been.
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Silverman
I know. Those guys are older than you. But is it going to stop with them?
Doesn’t look like it. http://is.gd/bFA1b
Great conversation happening here, obviously spawned from a great post
I will just say that I vocally tell people, I hope I am never described as “nice.” I personally think it’s a crap word with little-to-meaning. It’s like saying, “I’m fine,” you clearly know that person is NOT fine.
Grace Boyle´s last blog ..Friday Linky Love
I think that’s exactly the point. Not that we were looking for “mean” girls or “opinionated” girls… but that we weren’t going to let someone in *just because* they were nice. It’s a throwaway word with little meaning. And it’s an excuse to not find something more useful to say about someone.
You are nice, Grace, but you’re also smart, kind, and a good writer. To me, those things are far more valuable than the word “nice.”
Hi Monica,
I don’t think it’s fair or wise to make such broad generalizations about different generations or any group for that matter. I think we’re all guilty of doing that at times. In fact, I had to laugh when I saw your title because my first thought was, “Really? The generation that texts instead of talks (and often while someone else is actually talking to them) cares about conversation?”
You have some great points. Yes, many so-called “big-time” bloggers talk about conversation a lot, but like to talk mostly to people they know and people who agree with them. (An exception that quickly rises to the top of my mind is Danny Brown. And he’s not Gen Y.)
You also impress me with the length you go to and care you take in responding to comments on your blog. Thats impressive. But it’s not because you’re Gen Y, it’s because you care, you’re passionate about what you’re doing and you enjoy interacting with people. There are many people in every generation who act the same way, whether it’s blogging or work or any social interaction.
BTW, love the idea your sorority had! Great job on the post. I may not agree with you, but it was an interesting read. And your comment trail is just as interesting.
Coreen,
Really? I think it’s okay to make broad generalizations. How else do you notice trends on a macro level?
I think what bothers people about generational speak is that it makes them realize they aren’t special, and that their very personalities, wants, and desires have been influenced by the world events of the time period they grew up in. There are *some* exceptions, but pointing to those doesn’t make the rule any less real, and actually doesn’t make for a very interesting or strong argument.
Your point about responding to comments is good. It’s possible that this has more to do with how “big” you get versus your generation; however, I hope that I will always respond to comments no matter how “big” this blog gets
As a young, near the last Boomer who has more identity with X then Y, I think I have an answer about “mental flexibility” and “Openness”.
As we get older, and become more invested in who we are (read in here: acquire things such as home, spouse, children, better car, furniture, 401K, status in job etc) we find that we have “more to lose”. Some is real, some is transitionally real, some not so real, but some such as family and future security is very real and worth defending.
Unfortunately, that defense bleeds over into much of everything else that we believe “defines” us. With investment, we become less likely to sort out the battles that are worth fighting, and the ones that are a walk away. It’s not an age thing, as much as it’s an invested thing. Ask your parents.
Agreed. But the younger generations are not chugging towards the same payoff as the Boomers did. So I wonder if Gen Y will keep their openness.
Gen Y is a class apart. We have a different way of doing things. We believe in working smart instead of working hard. As mentioned by Vineet Nayar in his book ‘Employees first, Customers second’, managing Gen Y employees requires a new set of capabilities. Gen Y believes in collaboration and learning. They don’t expect perfect answers. Organizations need to find a way to put these Gen Y attributes to good use.
Yep, agreed with the point about perspective. Generations have personalities because of the global events that have shaped their views. I really love this video from Alexandra Levit talking about Gen Y – it explains the “why” in the points above so much better than I can. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXHbrC8Yt5M
In the spirit of conversation, I offer this as a more in-depth video on Gen-Y, Boomers, and Gen-X. As for the video link you post, I find it interesting that when you pull up the search result for it, it was only getting 1-star ratings before someone turned off the feedback loop. I think she did a better job than one star, but it’s ironic that the feedback loop was turned off on that one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVHnug8H1MM
Christian´s last blog ..cavemandrawings: @HeatherMargolis Likewise! Must do that more often
That vid has been removed by the sponsor.
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