I agree with this so much…as a female in Engineering, I’m constantly getting invited to “Women in Engineering” events. My thoughts can always be summarized like this:If you think women (or any minority) need some kind of minority specific support group to help their careers…then you must agree that the minority is disadvantages in some way, essentially you are propagating the exact mindset you are trying to stop with these groups.
I entirely agree that segregating women, or any other minority, for the sheer sake of it is counterproductive, perpetuates unhelpful stereotypes and can even be discriminatory. In many cases though, such groups are set up to remedy an existing imbalance.
The ‘old boys club’ has been operating since the business culture evolved and it is a well oiled machine in churning out new businessmen. New ‘boys’ are unearthed, introduced, mentored, and instructed in business culture. Women, who may enter the club, after already proving themselves, are at a disadvantage. They miss out on the instruction and have to ‘make it on their own’ first.
I agree that networking with only other women limits us. So does the lack of support in the infancy of our careers. Women need the same instruction, introduction and mentoring the boys club affords young men and if the ‘Old boys club’ won’t offer it we need to create it ourselves. Until the playing field is level successful women have a level of responsibility to mentor and foster younger businesswomen and deconstruct the boys club not pretend that the inequality doesn’t exist.
Funny that you and Penelope wrote on similar topics today. But I disagreed with her and I disagree here too. I do agree with some parts of it — like not limiting your networking to just women. That’s a huge thing — you shouldn’t limit your networking to just women; that would be stupid. However, I don’t get why all the hate on women-only or women-focused networking groups, etc. The point of such groups isn’t to be exclusive, to limit your networking to women only, or to “segregate women foolishly” as Penelope said.
The point is to have a support group where you can talk about what you want freely. It isn’t about limiting your networking to ONLY women, but about having support, especially in fields where there are less women — and the women you meet there, you can build deeper relationships with because of the shared experience.
And you don’t HAVE to always be “gender-neutral.” What’s wrong with so-called “girly” events? It shouldn’t be about whether its girly or manly or gender-neutral; you should just do what you want to. And face it, women have different interests than me. I have no interest in going to a golf outing, seriously. Sorry, but BORING. Why can’t we embrace those differences and do what we want in an event? Why do we have to do something men would do in an event, in order for it to be considered gender-neutral?
I would like to suggest that a Women’s College would be an example of the oldest Girl’s Club going. Check out these stats that I stole from the Converse College website about the educational and professional benefits of segregating women:
Benefits of Women’s CollegesStudies have found that, by attending women’s colleges, women :
Participate more fully in and out of class.
Have more opportunities to hold leadership positions and are able to observe women functioning in top jobs (80 percent of the presidents and 55 percent of the faculty are women).
Report greater satisfaction than their coed counterparts with their college experience in almost all measures – academically, developmentally, and personally.
Develop measurably higher levels of self-esteem than other achieving women in coeducational institutions.
After two years in coeducational institutions, women have been shown to have lower levels of self-esteem than when they entered college.
Score higher on standardized achievement tests.
Tend to choose traditionally male disciplines, like the sciences, as their academic major, in greater numbers.
Are more likely to graduate
Are more successful in careers; that is, they tend to hold higher positions, are happier and earn more money.
Tend to be more involved in philanthropic activities after college.
Achievements of Women’s College GraduatesOnly two percent of women college students choose to attend a single-gender college. However, those who make that choice have a remarkably high level of achievement. Consider the following statistics for the Women’s College Coalition :
Of Business Week’s list of the 50 women who are rising stars in Corporate America, 30 percent received their baccalaureate degrees from women’s colleges.
33 percent of the women board members of Fortune 1000 companies are women’s college graduates.
Of all the women members of Congress, nearly one-fourth attended women’s colleges.
One of every seven women cabinet members in state government attended a women’s college.
20 percent of women identified by Black Enterprise Magazine as the 20 most powerful African-American women in corporate America graduated from women’s colleges.
Nearly half of the graduates have earned advanced degrees, and 81 percent have continued their education beyond college.
Which leads me to say this: if the Girl’s Club in undergraduate education is so incredibly good for women and actually catapults them into leadership positions in male industries, there must be some application of the Girl’s Club that can continue to work for them throughout their professional lives. I would check out organizations like Womensphereto look at groups that are doing things that do NOT resemble slumber parties that bring together extraordinary women.
Monica, it sounds like you need to spend a little more time with organizations that provide room for smart-smart-smart women to get together to talk business. Because you’re right–spa parties and jewelry stuff in your living room likely don’t have much to do with, say, becoming Secretary of State.
As a young guy in the workplace I have to say that it really is beginning to feel like an all girls club. I work in a media company where advertising is core so we’re actually skewed towards more women than men. Since I work on the strategy side of things there aren’t many perks but when I hear about the spa’s, the brunches, the mani-pedi’s, and occasional gift baskets it makes my head spin. Here’s the ironic thing, when a male client of mine said “we should plan a golf outting”, I wriggled inside my own skin from the obvious and disgusting generation gap. I think it just shows a shift in culture on a macro-level that is effecting all workplaces.
I also agree, that the idea of an “All Girls Club” seems outdated and just emphasizes a power shift rather than a balance of power. It’s also a case of misery loves company. What’s the point in a group that simply brings to light the fact that all women share similar struggles and disdain for their male counterparts? (Isn’t that evident enough already?) Even if a member was to get some advice on how to handle certain situations or deal with certain colleagues that doesn’t solve the core problem – it only provides a way to make you numb and avoid it with a smile. Ultimately the seesaw is just tipping in the other direction.
I’d honestly like to see more open platforms for discussion that crosses ages, generations, genders, races, etc. Utopia, I know.
I don’t necessarily agree that it is a bad thing to participate in a women’s only network, so long as that isn’t the only type of networking opportunity someone pursues. Limiting your interactions and social connections by arbitrary considerations like age or sex would only do you a disservice the long run, as personal and professional growth comes from those situations which put us outside what is comfortable and familiar.
However, the main point of networking groups is to provide a platform to connect with others over a shared interest. But unfortunately a lot of networking events rake in those that are less interested in learning about others as they are in self-promotion, missing the balance between the two. In theory, one would expect women-only groups to be much more effective as women are considered to have higher EQs and relationship-building skills than men.
However, as men typically feel less inhibition marketing themselves than women, it makes sense that “male” dominated events might prove a bit more fruitful.
I agree with Nischa and Jennifer that I don’t see anything inherently wrong with participating in all-women networking opportunities/groups. Like they mentioned, that doesn’t mean you only network with women; it means that that’s one way you build connections. I have no idea why you couldn’t belong to both groups. I’ve definitely seen it happen. The jealously, pulling each other down thing is really silly. That’s what helps keep the “old boys” clubs going. Women really should be promoting other women. I guess I sound like a pollyanna when I say that, but I really believe it’s true.
Personally, I think there’s a lot of value in networking with other women, even in women only groups. Perhaps it’s all in the people you choose.
The solutions set forth here seem to be to ignore pervasive sexism rather
than to confront it, and for women to settle to be perceived as nothing more than
second-rate males, or rather, to deny that sexism negatively impacts us:
1.”We’ll put on a spa event instead of a sports event. We’ll do a wine
tasting instead of a bar crawl. We’ll host yoga classes instead of going
golfing. Realistically, none of these events would ever be settings for a
gender-neutral, business networking event.” But the bar crawl and sports event
is gender neutral? Masculine is general and feminine is specific, eh? I don’t think so.
2. “On average, women speak 20,000 words per day while men only speak
7,000.” This is false
(http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3348076&page=1) and, you know, a
sexist stereotype. It also doesn’t explain your conclusion that men are
naturally better at networking.
3. “[...] when women get into a fight it’s a cat fight [...] there are more
problems between two women than between two men or between a man and a woman.
So chances are women are not always your best allies in the workplace.” Women shouldn’t trust other women? I don;t think so. Women have never recieved rights and liberties because men gave them. Women recieved rights and liberties because women worked with each other (please see: women’s suffrage, women’s lib movements for examples of how much we can rely upon each other.)
Furthermore, we must retain people in female-dominated jobs like teachers, caretakers, social
workers, nurses, pro-bono advocates, etc. Our society as a whole loses out when
we devalorize those professions, causing talented women (and men) to flee from
jobs we all need! Where does a country full of greedy, sexist investment bankers and priests leave us in the long run? Bankrupt, that’s where.
Yes, I remember those. At my undergraduate school, these events would consist of the same five girls who were the only ones in the entire computer science department.
It’s definitely true that these groups (and any minority groups) just reinforce stereotypes. I think these groups are formed so you can connect with people who are similar to you, but really, you learn the most from people who are drastically different from you. So we should all consider why society feels a need for formal organization of these cohorts when they would form naturally anyway – we should be forcing integration instead.
I agree that’s why these groups were set up. It’s a fine line, really, isn’t it? Because we want to be accepted, yet we want support from others like us for what we’re going through in terms of being a minority.
I do think women need the same kind of mentoring men get – but to me, that means getting mentored by a man if it’s a male-dominated field. That’s not to say you can’t or shouldn’t have a woman mentoring you. The good news is you can have a board of mentors – but still, I would think (and I could be wrong) that the most successful professionals would create a board of mentors that has the same demographics as the industry. That might mean 4 men and 1 woman for some industries.
In terms of deconstructing the boys club, I still fail to see how creating a girls club reaches that goal. I agree we have to deconstruct the boys club, I just don’t know that a girls club meets that goal.
Good points. I can tell you’ve been thinking about this a lot.
I think where I would distinguish is between what is fair and what is good for my career. I don’t think it’s fair that golfing is an important skill to learn in business, but I’m sure there are men who would agree with me, yet suck it up. I do think that if a woman’s network wants to be more useful they should schedule golf lessons for women rather than a spa event, because golfing skills are good for your career while a spa generally isn’t (unless you consider that better-looking women do better in the workplace – another unfair advantage). I don’t think it’s fair. I think it sucks actually. But after an entire lifetime of being the token girl in the group, I know it’s true, unfortunately.
In my opinion, girly events like spa days should be stuff you do with your mom or girlfriends, not with a group of professional women. And generally, if you really connect with another female professional on a non-superficial level, you would start doing these things with her anyway because you’d be friends.
Regarding your point about building deeper relationships with other women – it’s a good one; however – my question in return would be “Why?” What is the point in building a relationship with another professional simply because we are the same gender? I would think it’s better (and easier) to build deeper relationships with someone you have common interests with.
Great points. Ryan Paugh wrote something about that last year – about men who work in female-dominated fields, and how they experience the same problems women face in male-dominated fields. It’s an important point to remember.
I think it’s interesting that you see golf as an older generation thing. I still find golf is huge in business, but maybe that’s because I live in a bigger city. I also know many guys my age who play golf, but now that you mention it, there are also many younger guys who don’t play simply because they don’t like the sport.
I also think it’s interesting that you see a girls’ club as emphasizing a shift in power. I see it as reinforcing the pre-feminism beliefs, but I can see your perspective as a guy in a female-dominated profession. The answer is probably that men and women are different, and each gender needs to work harder at understanding the other’s needs in the workplace.
I agree, it is enforcing pre-feminist beliefs, maybe I’m wrong but I’ve always felt that originally the fight was for “equality” in the workplace but the arguments focused on areas of superiority. I don’t deny that this might be biased though. (Oh, and I work in NYC but there really isn’t much golf going on around here at least not in my industry. Golf to me is a great way to unwind with friends rather than a way to mix work and leisure.)
I think the golf thing is probably too stereotypical. The guys I worked with before used to golf all the time and since I didn’t know how/wasn’t interested I usually missed out. But there was another guy in our office who never went either, so maybe it was just a leisure activity for the guys as opposed to not.
I agree that networking events can turn into a selling contest, but I’ve still made a ton of great contacts through networking. I also agree that networking groups should be formed based on interests. It’s very rare that women would have the same interests in my opinion, which is why I don’t get the segregation. So there isn’t a common thread and then you end up talking about women’s issues topics instead of career topics. Or you put a spin on a career topic.
For example, taking a normal event, like a talk about entrepreneurship, and turning it into a “women in entrepreneurship” event. I guess it serves a niche, but honestly most entrepreneurs are men. So if you want to be an entrepreneur, it makes more sense to just have an entrepreneurship event with lots of male speakers. You would learn more, I think.
I do agree that jealousy is silly and that women should be helping each other rather than competing. I’m not sure how that notion actually plays out in the real world.
Regarding joining both women networking groups and other networking groups, maybe it depends on how much time you have; I prefer to networking with people who share my interests, men or women. It’s just more productive. I think networking with a group of solely women is just about as good as networking with a group of randomly selected people from all over the world. If you want to hang out with women you can always hang out with your girlfriends; career-wise it still doesn’t make sense to me because it’s more productive to network with people in your industry or profession.
Thanks for the comment. I certainly don’t claim to have an answer to gender gaps in the post. My argument is only that all-female networking groups are not the answer.
Regarding your points:
1. I think for Gen Y bar crawls and sports events are considered fairly gender neutral. Especially bar crawls. I think women groups tend to focus on events that *only* women like though, because there is nothing but “women” that defines the group (there are no other common interests or threads). Which seems counterproductive for a professional networking group.
2. Thanks for the link. Yes, it’s a stereotype. There is no way to talk about large trends among demographics without using stereotypes. And my conclusion didn’t come from that statistic, it actually came from the part where I said women are conversational networkers and men are transactional networkers. And yes, that’s another stereotype. I argue that transactional networkers are more efficient networkers because they spend less time networking with the same amount of people.
3. Good counter-argument. Don’t really have much to refute there
4. Women make less than their male colleagues on average regardless of industry, because women are worse negotiators than men. The gender gap in male-dominated fields may be larger because the salary range is larger because the industry as a whole has higher-paying jobs.
Women may face more sexism, but in my experience there are also benefits to being one of the few females in your industry. It depends on the life you choose for yourself.
We overall make less than men mostly because we leave the workforce for motherhood. Young women in large cities actually make more than their male counterparts.
I agree with you that society loses out when we devalue positions that are female-dominated. That’s part of the problem, right? How are all-female groups the solution though?
Thanks for the comment. Very insightful, and made me think much harder about what I was saying. -Monica
Good question. I’ve considered whether it’s a good fit for me but I’m afraid to leave on a bad note. I do think, however, that I probably won’t participate anymore once my term is up.
Thank you so much for this information! Fascinating, really. I think you’re right about how my experiences with all-female networking groups is not necessarily representative of every single opportunity out there. I’ll definitely check out some of the sources you provided. Thanks for the comment!
Monica O'Brien is the Director of Digital at Fizz and author of the book Social Pollination, which helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth!
Monica O'Brien is the Director of Digital at Fizz and author of the book Social Pollination, which helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth!
{ 26 comments… read them below or add one }
I agree with this so much…as a female in Engineering, I’m constantly getting invited to “Women in Engineering” events. My thoughts can always be summarized like this:If you think women (or any minority) need some kind of minority specific support group to help their careers…then you must agree that the minority is disadvantages in some way, essentially you are propagating the exact mindset you are trying to stop with these groups.
So why are you on the board of one if you think they are so worthless?
So why are you on the board of one if you think they are so worthless?
Monica,
I entirely agree that segregating women, or any other minority, for the sheer sake of it is counterproductive, perpetuates unhelpful stereotypes and can even be discriminatory. In many cases though, such groups are set up to remedy an existing imbalance.
The ‘old boys club’ has been operating since the business culture evolved and it is a well oiled machine in churning out new businessmen. New ‘boys’ are unearthed, introduced, mentored, and instructed in business culture. Women, who may enter the club, after already proving themselves, are at a disadvantage. They miss out on the instruction and have to ‘make it on their own’ first.
I agree that networking with only other women limits us. So does the lack of support in the infancy of our careers. Women need the same instruction, introduction and mentoring the boys club affords young men and if the ‘Old boys club’ won’t offer it we need to create it ourselves. Until the playing field is level successful women have a level of responsibility to mentor and foster younger businesswomen and deconstruct the boys club not pretend that the inequality doesn’t exist.
Funny that you and Penelope wrote on similar topics today. But I disagreed with her and I disagree here too. I do agree with some parts of it — like not limiting your networking to just women. That’s a huge thing — you shouldn’t limit your networking to just women; that would be stupid. However, I don’t get why all the hate on women-only or women-focused networking groups, etc. The point of such groups isn’t to be exclusive, to limit your networking to women only, or to “segregate women foolishly” as Penelope said.
The point is to have a support group where you can talk about what you want freely. It isn’t about limiting your networking to ONLY women, but about having support, especially in fields where there are less women — and the women you meet there, you can build deeper relationships with because of the shared experience.
And you don’t HAVE to always be “gender-neutral.” What’s wrong with so-called “girly” events? It shouldn’t be about whether its girly or manly or gender-neutral; you should just do what you want to. And face it, women have different interests than me. I have no interest in going to a golf outing, seriously. Sorry, but BORING. Why can’t we embrace those differences and do what we want in an event? Why do we have to do something men would do in an event, in order for it to be considered gender-neutral?
That sentence was meant to say: Women have different interests than MEN. Not “me”.
I would like to suggest that a Women’s College would be an example of the oldest Girl’s Club going. Check out these stats that I stole from the Converse College website about the educational and professional benefits of segregating women:
Benefits of Women’s CollegesStudies have found that, by attending women’s colleges, women :
Achievements of Women’s College GraduatesOnly two percent of women college students choose to attend a single-gender college. However, those who make that choice have a remarkably high level of achievement. Consider the following statistics for the Women’s College Coalition :
Which leads me to say this: if the Girl’s Club in undergraduate education is so incredibly good for women and actually catapults them into leadership positions in male industries, there must be some application of the Girl’s Club that can continue to work for them throughout their professional lives. I would check out organizations like Womensphere to look at groups that are doing things that do NOT resemble slumber parties that bring together extraordinary women.
Monica, it sounds like you need to spend a little more time with organizations that provide room for smart-smart-smart women to get together to talk business. Because you’re right–spa parties and jewelry stuff in your living room likely don’t have much to do with, say, becoming Secretary of State.
As a young guy in the workplace I have to say that it really is beginning to feel like an all girls club. I work in a media company where advertising is core so we’re actually skewed towards more women than men. Since I work on the strategy side of things there aren’t many perks but when I hear about the spa’s, the brunches, the mani-pedi’s, and occasional gift baskets it makes my head spin. Here’s the ironic thing, when a male client of mine said “we should plan a golf outting”, I wriggled inside my own skin from the obvious and disgusting generation gap. I think it just shows a shift in culture on a macro-level that is effecting all workplaces.
I also agree, that the idea of an “All Girls Club” seems outdated and just emphasizes a power shift rather than a balance of power. It’s also a case of misery loves company. What’s the point in a group that simply brings to light the fact that all women share similar struggles and disdain for their male counterparts? (Isn’t that evident enough already?) Even if a member was to get some advice on how to handle certain situations or deal with certain colleagues that doesn’t solve the core problem – it only provides a way to make you numb and avoid it with a smile. Ultimately the seesaw is just tipping in the other direction.
I’d honestly like to see more open platforms for discussion that crosses ages, generations, genders, races, etc. Utopia, I know.
(sorry not sure why the paragraphs didn’t get seperated)
I don’t necessarily agree that it is a bad thing to participate in a women’s only network, so long as that isn’t the only type of networking opportunity someone pursues. Limiting your interactions and social connections by arbitrary considerations like age or sex would only do you a disservice the long run, as personal and professional growth comes from those situations which put us outside what is comfortable and familiar.
However, the main point of networking groups is to provide a platform to connect with others over a shared interest. But unfortunately a lot of networking events rake in those that are less interested in learning about others as they are in self-promotion, missing the balance between the two. In theory, one would expect women-only groups to be much more effective as women are considered to have higher EQs and relationship-building skills than men.
However, as men typically feel less inhibition marketing themselves than women, it makes sense that “male” dominated events might prove a bit more fruitful.
I agree with Nischa and Jennifer that I don’t see anything inherently wrong with participating in all-women networking opportunities/groups. Like they mentioned, that doesn’t mean you only network with women; it means that that’s one way you build connections. I have no idea why you couldn’t belong to both groups. I’ve definitely seen it happen. The jealously, pulling each other down thing is really silly. That’s what helps keep the “old boys” clubs going. Women really should be promoting other women. I guess I sound like a pollyanna when I say that, but I really believe it’s true.
Personally, I think there’s a lot of value in networking with other women, even in women only groups. Perhaps it’s all in the people you choose.
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The style of writing is quite familiar to me. Have you written guest posts for other blogs?
The solutions set forth here seem to be to ignore pervasive sexism rather
than to confront it, and for women to settle to be perceived as nothing more than
second-rate males, or rather, to deny that sexism negatively impacts us:
1.”We’ll put on a spa event instead of a sports event. We’ll do a wine
tasting instead of a bar crawl. We’ll host yoga classes instead of going
golfing. Realistically, none of these events would ever be settings for a
gender-neutral, business networking event.” But the bar crawl and sports event
is gender neutral? Masculine is general and feminine is specific, eh? I don’t think so.
2. “On average, women speak 20,000 words per day while men only speak
7,000.” This is false
(http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3348076&page=1) and, you know, a
sexist stereotype. It also doesn’t explain your conclusion that men are
naturally better at networking.
3. “[...] when women get into a fight it’s a cat fight [...] there are more
problems between two women than between two men or between a man and a woman.
So chances are women are not always your best allies in the workplace.” Women shouldn’t trust other women? I don;t think so. Women have never recieved rights and liberties because men gave them. Women recieved rights and liberties because women worked with each other (please see: women’s suffrage, women’s lib movements for examples of how much we can rely upon each other.)
4. “And really, if you want to make more money as a woman, you should be
in a male-dominated field.” Actually, women in male-dominated fields proportionally
make much less than their male colleagues:
(http://www.cbsalary.com/salary-information/article.aspx?t=PayGenderGap&id=f65b82dc-116f-4978-b841-61e14aac992c)and
We face more sexism: (http://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug04/women.html)
And we still, overall, make less than men:
(http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/censusandstatistics/a/paygapgrows.htm)
Furthermore, we must retain people in female-dominated jobs like teachers, caretakers, social
workers, nurses, pro-bono advocates, etc. Our society as a whole loses out when
we devalorize those professions, causing talented women (and men) to flee from
jobs we all need! Where does a country full of greedy, sexist investment bankers and priests leave us in the long run? Bankrupt, that’s where.
Melina,
Yes, I remember those.
At my undergraduate school, these events would consist of the same five girls who were the only ones in the entire computer science department.
It’s definitely true that these groups (and any minority groups) just reinforce stereotypes. I think these groups are formed so you can connect with people who are similar to you, but really, you learn the most from people who are drastically different from you. So we should all consider why society feels a need for formal organization of these cohorts when they would form naturally anyway – we should be forcing integration instead.
Thank you for that insight!
Rachael,
I agree that’s why these groups were set up. It’s a fine line, really, isn’t it? Because we want to be accepted, yet we want support from others like us for what we’re going through in terms of being a minority.
I do think women need the same kind of mentoring men get – but to me, that means getting mentored by a man if it’s a male-dominated field. That’s not to say you can’t or shouldn’t have a woman mentoring you. The good news is you can have a board of mentors – but still, I would think (and I could be wrong) that the most successful professionals would create a board of mentors that has the same demographics as the industry. That might mean 4 men and 1 woman for some industries.
In terms of deconstructing the boys club, I still fail to see how creating a girls club reaches that goal. I agree we have to deconstruct the boys club, I just don’t know that a girls club meets that goal.
Nisha,
Good points. I can tell you’ve been thinking about this a lot.
I think where I would distinguish is between what is fair and what is good for my career. I don’t think it’s fair that golfing is an important skill to learn in business, but I’m sure there are men who would agree with me, yet suck it up. I do think that if a woman’s network wants to be more useful they should schedule golf lessons for women rather than a spa event, because golfing skills are good for your career while a spa generally isn’t (unless you consider that better-looking women do better in the workplace – another unfair advantage). I don’t think it’s fair. I think it sucks actually. But after an entire lifetime of being the token girl in the group, I know it’s true, unfortunately.
In my opinion, girly events like spa days should be stuff you do with your mom or girlfriends, not with a group of professional women. And generally, if you really connect with another female professional on a non-superficial level, you would start doing these things with her anyway because you’d be friends.
Regarding your point about building deeper relationships with other women – it’s a good one; however – my question in return would be “Why?” What is the point in building a relationship with another professional simply because we are the same gender? I would think it’s better (and easier) to build deeper relationships with someone you have common interests with.
rikin,
Great points. Ryan Paugh wrote something about that last year – about men who work in female-dominated fields, and how they experience the same problems women face in male-dominated fields. It’s an important point to remember.
I think it’s interesting that you see golf as an older generation thing. I still find golf is huge in business, but maybe that’s because I live in a bigger city. I also know many guys my age who play golf, but now that you mention it, there are also many younger guys who don’t play simply because they don’t like the sport.
I also think it’s interesting that you see a girls’ club as emphasizing a shift in power. I see it as reinforcing the pre-feminism beliefs, but I can see your perspective as a guy in a female-dominated profession. The answer is probably that men and women are different, and each gender needs to work harder at understanding the other’s needs in the workplace.
I agree, it is enforcing pre-feminist beliefs, maybe I’m wrong but I’ve always felt that originally the fight was for “equality” in the workplace but the arguments focused on areas of superiority. I don’t deny that this might be biased though. (Oh, and I work in NYC but there really isn’t much golf going on around here at least not in my industry. Golf to me is a great way to unwind with friends rather than a way to mix work and leisure.)
rikin,
I think the golf thing is probably too stereotypical. The guys I worked with before used to golf all the time and since I didn’t know how/wasn’t interested I usually missed out. But there was another guy in our office who never went either, so maybe it was just a leisure activity for the guys as opposed to not.
Jennifer,
I agree that networking events can turn into a selling contest, but I’ve still made a ton of great contacts through networking. I also agree that networking groups should be formed based on interests. It’s very rare that women would have the same interests in my opinion, which is why I don’t get the segregation. So there isn’t a common thread and then you end up talking about women’s issues topics instead of career topics. Or you put a spin on a career topic.
For example, taking a normal event, like a talk about entrepreneurship, and turning it into a “women in entrepreneurship” event. I guess it serves a niche, but honestly most entrepreneurs are men. So if you want to be an entrepreneur, it makes more sense to just have an entrepreneurship event with lots of male speakers. You would learn more, I think.
Thanks for the comment!
Angela,
I do agree that jealousy is silly and that women should be helping each other rather than competing. I’m not sure how that notion actually plays out in the real world.
Regarding joining both women networking groups and other networking groups, maybe it depends on how much time you have; I prefer to networking with people who share my interests, men or women. It’s just more productive. I think networking with a group of solely women is just about as good as networking with a group of randomly selected people from all over the world. If you want to hang out with women you can always hang out with your girlfriends; career-wise it still doesn’t make sense to me because it’s more productive to network with people in your industry or profession.
Erin,
Thanks for the comment. I certainly don’t claim to have an answer to gender gaps in the post. My argument is only that all-female networking groups are not the answer.
Regarding your points:
1. I think for Gen Y bar crawls and sports events are considered fairly gender neutral. Especially bar crawls. I think women groups tend to focus on events that *only* women like though, because there is nothing but “women” that defines the group (there are no other common interests or threads). Which seems counterproductive for a professional networking group.
2. Thanks for the link. Yes, it’s a stereotype. There is no way to talk about large trends among demographics without using stereotypes. And my conclusion didn’t come from that statistic, it actually came from the part where I said women are conversational networkers and men are transactional networkers. And yes, that’s another stereotype. I argue that transactional networkers are more efficient networkers because they spend less time networking with the same amount of people.
3. Good counter-argument. Don’t really have much to refute there
4. Women make less than their male colleagues on average regardless of industry, because women are worse negotiators than men. The gender gap in male-dominated fields may be larger because the salary range is larger because the industry as a whole has higher-paying jobs.
Women may face more sexism, but in my experience there are also benefits to being one of the few females in your industry. It depends on the life you choose for yourself.
We overall make less than men mostly because we leave the workforce for motherhood. Young women in large cities actually make more than their male counterparts.
I agree with you that society loses out when we devalue positions that are female-dominated. That’s part of the problem, right? How are all-female groups the solution though?
Thanks for the comment. Very insightful, and made me think much harder about what I was saying. -Monica
Vince,
Yep! Problogger, Mashable, and Personal Branding Blog are my most recent ones
Good question. I’ve considered whether it’s a good fit for me but I’m afraid to leave on a bad note. I do think, however, that I probably won’t participate anymore once my term is up.
Elizabeth,
Thank you so much for this information! Fascinating, really. I think you’re right about how my experiences with all-female networking groups is not necessarily representative of every single opportunity out there. I’ll definitely check out some of the sources you provided. Thanks for the comment!
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