I feel your pain. My colleague, Dale Dauten, recently provided some great perspective on situations like these. He simply said, “You can’t help people who haven’t had the right life lessons yet.”
I think your advice to keep reading/absorbing was excellent. My fingers are crossed for your mentee that some life lessons come her way soon.
Hm, it sounds like she doesn’t take the lesson she is getting from you because she doesn’t need them. If her parents are willing to coddle her and allow her to be a lifetime student, what is there to learn on her end?
There has to be an incentive to learn and to change your thinking or habits. Right now, she has none because she can just chill and decide what she wants to do. Why would she voluntarily choose to take a hard lesson when her parents are willing to support her indefinitely?
In my 12-step program, we always say that you have to want it to get it. You can talk till you’re blue in the face, but if she doesn’t want a solution, you can’t give it to her.
My sister is a nurse. She always teases me that she’ll probably make more in her life with her community college AS than I ever will with my snooty-falooty private college BA. And she’s right. Oh, believe me, it gets me thinking sometimes when she calls from her condo in Vail to tell me she just finished a kick-ass snowboarding session during one of her 4 days off from work every week. But, nursing is her passion and she’s damn good at it.
I had a friend who was one class away from her MBA, who hadn’t had a job in a year-and-a-half, living off her trust fund who had the same nursing idea. She dropped out on the fourth day. I kid you not.
I have a friend I’ve tried to help find a decent job the past year or so and all I can say is cut your losses. See the person for who they are and wait for them to come to you when they want some real advice and are willing to do what you did. In the program, we say “If you want what I have, you’ll do what I did.”
Oooh, my blood started to boil when you said “earth science, of all things” (because not enough people study the earth itself) – but it’s the truth, Science overall is a tough job market, there’s no doubt about that. It sounds like she is her own problem though, and overall, when you choose the sciences you’re practically choosing academia, maybe for life.
Unless you score with a consulting outfit.
I was a Political Science / English major which was sufficiently useless. My interest in forestry came through my first student job, not school experience, and now I “do better” than people who actually majored in Forestry.
While school can provide some tools. YOU YOU YOU are your own solution.
Monica, I usually find your posts to be spot on, but I’m afraid here I must disagree a little. If someone is having trouble figuring out what they want to do in the context of the decisions they’ve made, and they’re expressing exasperation, it is perfectly legitimate for you to offer your advice, especially given your expertise in career counseling. If she is going to gripe, she should be expected to listen to your response.
However, you say that “if you do not have a job and you want to get a job and nothing you’ve tried is working, you are in no position to refuse perfectly good and reasonable (and free) advice from someone whose only intention is to help you.” I beg to differ. You say yourself that “she does not want coaching and [your] patience is thinning.” Who’s problem is that? She didn’t ask for help; it sounds like she just wanted to chat and needed someone’s ear to vent her frustration. Just because you offer her expert advice doesn’t mean she has to think it’s a good idea, or take it.
I know it can be hard when you think you know better than someone else what they need. But sometimes people have to fall and pick themselves up.
I think she explains why more education is not always (or often) better. Maybe your friend will find the advice more helpful if it comes from a different source?
Monica – I totally agree that your major does not determine what field of work you will end up in. My boss was an art history major and now she’s a very successful managing director/senior vice president at a PR firm.
I enjoy reading your blog and look forward to your next post!
JT, This is true. It’s difficult to help people learn from your mistakes because they haven’t experienced the mistake firsthand. I do wish I could hook her up with a coach, but I think she’s having trouble seeing the benefits of coaching at this point.
Lance, you make a good point. I don’t think her parents will support her forever, but they have done a lot for her by eliminating student loans and setting her up for the summer. There is a much greater urgency to “do something” when you need money to live the life you choose.
Holly, haha. Yes, I think nursing is a wonderful profession for people who are very passionate about their work. At least that’s what my nursing friends tell me!
I love your last line, “If you want what I have, you’ll do what I did.” Maybe that’s it – she doesn’t want what I have. And that’s okay – I just hope she figures out what she does want.
Torbjorn, I apologize for picking on the earth science majors. I respect earth science, but it is one of those majors that’s tough to find a job in.
Your success story with transitioning to a career outside your major is fantastic. More proof that your major doesn’t matter, you can take yourself farther than your major alone can.
Jarred, you’re right. Nobody has to take advice, especially unsolicited, which is sort of what mine was. (I say sort of because most people don’t talk to someone who works in the career advice realm unless they want advice.) But I still think that taking in advice, whether you act on it or not, gives you ideas on how you can solve your own problems. So I hope my friend will continue to take in advice from multiple sources until she figures out what she should do for her career.
Chris, thanks for the link. I may have to forward that presentation to my friend. I definitely agree that hearing the same information from multiple sources can help to absorb the information better.
Val, Thank you! There are so many success stories of people who have successfully transitioned their careers from what they originally studied. I see this especially with history – a good reason to major in it, maybe!
I know this is months after the post was written, but I stumbled upon this and couldn’t help but comment.
Monica, I am knew to your blog, but have really really enjoyed reading your posts. We think alike more often than not, however in this case, I do kind of disagree with your opinion on your friend.
I completely agree about your overall meaning and your suggestions to your friend. However, a common trait especially among younger 20-somethings is the issue with openly accepting advice. It is something I personally struggle with often. My only note is that your friend may have been “arguing” with your advice, meanwhile it could have all been absorbed and left for her to think about later. And it might turn out that she may take your advice, just on her own terms, and not at that exact moment.
I don’t know what it is but I have a natural tendency to conflict with all advice given to me. It’s really horrible sometimes. But I’ll go home that night and really ponder this advice, and more often than not, I take it and use it. Meanwhile, the advice giver (like you) feels frustrated and unappreciated.
I guess all I’m trying to say is that maybe you can look beyond the conversation and your friend might really be valuing your advice and using it to form her own perfect scenario.
Monica O'Brien is the Director of Digital at Fizz and author of the book Social Pollination, which helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth!
"Must read for business owners, marketing professionals, or students looking to understand the next monumental shift in marketing and advertising." Patrick Ambron, CMO of Brand Yourself software
Monica O'Brien is the Director of Digital at Fizz and author of the book Social Pollination, which helps businesses leverage social media for crazy growth!
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Hey Monica!
I feel your pain. My colleague, Dale Dauten, recently provided some great perspective on situations like these. He simply said, “You can’t help people who haven’t had the right life lessons yet.”
I think your advice to keep reading/absorbing was excellent. My fingers are crossed for your mentee that some life lessons come her way soon.
Great post!
Hm, it sounds like she doesn’t take the lesson she is getting from you because she doesn’t need them. If her parents are willing to coddle her and allow her to be a lifetime student, what is there to learn on her end?
There has to be an incentive to learn and to change your thinking or habits. Right now, she has none because she can just chill and decide what she wants to do. Why would she voluntarily choose to take a hard lesson when her parents are willing to support her indefinitely?
In my 12-step program, we always say that you have to want it to get it. You can talk till you’re blue in the face, but if she doesn’t want a solution, you can’t give it to her.
My sister is a nurse. She always teases me that she’ll probably make more in her life with her community college AS than I ever will with my snooty-falooty private college BA. And she’s right. Oh, believe me, it gets me thinking sometimes when she calls from her condo in Vail to tell me she just finished a kick-ass snowboarding session during one of her 4 days off from work every week. But, nursing is her passion and she’s damn good at it.
I had a friend who was one class away from her MBA, who hadn’t had a job in a year-and-a-half, living off her trust fund who had the same nursing idea. She dropped out on the fourth day. I kid you not.
I have a friend I’ve tried to help find a decent job the past year or so and all I can say is cut your losses. See the person for who they are and wait for them to come to you when they want some real advice and are willing to do what you did. In the program, we say “If you want what I have, you’ll do what I did.”
Oooh, my blood started to boil when you said “earth science, of all things” (because not enough people study the earth itself) – but it’s the truth, Science overall is a tough job market, there’s no doubt about that. It sounds like she is her own problem though, and overall, when you choose the sciences you’re practically choosing academia, maybe for life.
Unless you score with a consulting outfit.
I was a Political Science / English major which was sufficiently useless. My interest in forestry came through my first student job, not school experience, and now I “do better” than people who actually majored in Forestry.
While school can provide some tools. YOU YOU YOU are your own solution.
Monica, I usually find your posts to be spot on, but I’m afraid here I must disagree a little. If someone is having trouble figuring out what they want to do in the context of the decisions they’ve made, and they’re expressing exasperation, it is perfectly legitimate for you to offer your advice, especially given your expertise in career counseling. If she is going to gripe, she should be expected to listen to your response.
However, you say that “if you do not have a job and you want to get a job and nothing you’ve tried is working, you are in no position to refuse perfectly good and reasonable (and free) advice from someone whose only intention is to help you.” I beg to differ. You say yourself that “she does not want coaching and [your] patience is thinning.” Who’s problem is that? She didn’t ask for help; it sounds like she just wanted to chat and needed someone’s ear to vent her frustration. Just because you offer her expert advice doesn’t mean she has to think it’s a good idea, or take it.
I know it can be hard when you think you know better than someone else what they need. But sometimes people have to fall and pick themselves up.
This was such a good post. I’m too tired to write a meaningful comment, but really, it was fabulous.
Monica – I see JT already commented, but as I was reading this I couldn’t help but think of JT’s presentation for YP’s. (http://www.jtodonnell.com/presentations/free/college2career/index.html)
I think she explains why more education is not always (or often) better. Maybe your friend will find the advice more helpful if it comes from a different source?
Monica – I totally agree that your major does not determine what field of work you will end up in. My boss was an art history major and now she’s a very successful managing director/senior vice president at a PR firm.
I enjoy reading your blog and look forward to your next post!
JT, This is true. It’s difficult to help people learn from your mistakes because they haven’t experienced the mistake firsthand. I do wish I could hook her up with a coach, but I think she’s having trouble seeing the benefits of coaching at this point.
Lance, you make a good point. I don’t think her parents will support her forever, but they have done a lot for her by eliminating student loans and setting her up for the summer. There is a much greater urgency to “do something” when you need money to live the life you choose.
Holly, haha. Yes, I think nursing is a wonderful profession for people who are very passionate about their work. At least that’s what my nursing friends tell me!
I love your last line, “If you want what I have, you’ll do what I did.” Maybe that’s it – she doesn’t want what I have. And that’s okay – I just hope she figures out what she does want.
Torbjorn, I apologize for picking on the earth science majors. I respect earth science, but it is one of those majors that’s tough to find a job in.
Your success story with transitioning to a career outside your major is fantastic. More proof that your major doesn’t matter, you can take yourself farther than your major alone can.
Jarred, you’re right. Nobody has to take advice, especially unsolicited, which is sort of what mine was. (I say sort of because most people don’t talk to someone who works in the career advice realm unless they want advice.) But I still think that taking in advice, whether you act on it or not, gives you ideas on how you can solve your own problems. So I hope my friend will continue to take in advice from multiple sources until she figures out what she should do for her career.
Chris, thanks for the link. I may have to forward that presentation to my friend. I definitely agree that hearing the same information from multiple sources can help to absorb the information better.
Val, Thank you! There are so many success stories of people who have successfully transitioned their careers from what they originally studied. I see this especially with history – a good reason to major in it, maybe!
Thanks again to everyone for the comments!
I know this is months after the post was written, but I stumbled upon this and couldn’t help but comment.
Monica, I am knew to your blog, but have really really enjoyed reading your posts. We think alike more often than not, however in this case, I do kind of disagree with your opinion on your friend.
I completely agree about your overall meaning and your suggestions to your friend. However, a common trait especially among younger 20-somethings is the issue with openly accepting advice. It is something I personally struggle with often. My only note is that your friend may have been “arguing” with your advice, meanwhile it could have all been absorbed and left for her to think about later. And it might turn out that she may take your advice, just on her own terms, and not at that exact moment.
I don’t know what it is but I have a natural tendency to conflict with all advice given to me. It’s really horrible sometimes. But I’ll go home that night and really ponder this advice, and more often than not, I take it and use it. Meanwhile, the advice giver (like you) feels frustrated and unappreciated.
I guess all I’m trying to say is that maybe you can look beyond the conversation and your friend might really be valuing your advice and using it to form her own perfect scenario.
Thanks!
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